What happened to natural?

Have you never seen Withnail & I, it's a conspiracy, barbers are employed by the government.

 

Hi Spacer.

Do you wear clothes when it is warm enough to go naked?

sunseeker.

 

While I don't dispute that their is a vast corporate mechanism in place now that uses (or maybe abuses is more fitting) this natural human desire to make ourselves over, that doesn't change the fact that people from the beginning of time have constantly striven to change their appearance. Primitive tribes tatoo and scar themselves still to this day. Back in the 1700's people wore the most ridiculous clothing and powdered wigs and all that makeup. Before that the Greeks and Romans wore togas, sandals and crowned their heads with twigs and leaves. Heck, the Egyptians were masters of fashion, long before there was ever an "industry" that made money off of it.

There isn't some vast corporate conspiracy to impose values on us...they're simply preying on a very distinct human drive. I once wrote a paper exploring the question of fashion, personal appearance and identity - my theory is that we are drawn to this so much because it is our chance every day to "play God". And who doesn't like to feel that powerful every day, that they can remake themselves in THEIR own image? :H

 

very well put, i couldn't have said it better myself

 

This urge for people to change their appearance has gone from having a useful purpose to just doing it to do it so they can fit in and other people can make lots of money off of it. Now its just a big money making game, instead of having some practical reason for being done.

That was mostly for primitive religious or spiritual reasons.

That was a show of power to make ourselves look bigger and badder than all the other people in the world. It was just some lame power trip. Also the church had a big influence because it practically ran everything then and had this whacked up view of how proper people should dress so they wouldnt offend God or anything.

That was just some nutty way to worship all their Gods and demonstrate their power over the minorities.

They still brainwash us and make us think we need to dress and look contrary to what we think we should look and dress like.

I really have no desire to play God, God made me the way I am for a reason and I really dont want to pretend like im anywhere near his status because I know there is no way id ever gain that status even if I tried, so I dont even bother.

 

So are you saying that it's wrong for people to feel the need to fit in? Yeah people make lots of money off of it...like they do with everything. That's the society we live in...someone is always trying to sell us something. I'm not saying it's ideal, but I guess I just don't get why it seems to bother you so much.

And I don't know what you mean by "having a useful purpose". Apart from camouflaging oneself during a hunt for food or something...is that what you mean? I only touch on this because I think that it's precisely at the heart of my opinion - since changing one's appearance is, to me, mostly an exercise in vanity and has rarely served a practical purpose. Even the examples we debated - regardless of the religious, political or solciological reasons...I honestly think that at the heart of it all was nothing but common human beings "putting on airs" as they used to say.

That's my whole point. It's about power. Power to be more than what we are. Whether that power is as simple as making oneself feel better or as complex as dressing appropriately for spiritual development and recognition. But yes even after those reasons are stripped away, I still think that it falls back onto egotism like I mentioned before.

So if they brainwash us, how come I can wear whatever I want?

I'm not trying to be confrontational - but I have seen this brought up a couple of times and I think you're giving too much power to the commercialization of society. Of course advertisers and manufacturers try to push the products that they want to sell - that's capitalism. But each one of us has a free mind. People who dress the way they want to, even IF it is to "fit in", are making the choice - they're not having those choices made for them. Peer pressure might influence someone to dress a certain way that they might not have chosen for themselves in a neutral environment, but the fact of the matter is - we have that choice. I don't buy into the premise that we aren't in control of our own lives. If people decide to conform by dressing the same, it's because they CHOOSE to.

It's not a literal analogy. But like it or not, as a human being, we all desire some level of power over our environment, our identity and our existence. It's human nature. Maybe you'd be able to argue that you're not like that...well more power to you if that is the case. I know I'm not like that, nor do I know anyone else who is. At any rate, I think I've given enough energy to this thread. THanks for the debate though.

 

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That stands out as one of the more important things I've read on this forum. Taking control of our identities---yes. I would take that to mean not being a slave to fashion, but taking whatever is good from fashion as it comes along, and ignoring the rest, which is what I've tried to do for many years. Nice post. Thanks, Matt.

 

I am very lucky being 49 and still have a full head of blonde (no gray KNOCK WOOD) hair. I keep it short because it is easier to take care of and during the summer I keep it very short for comfort.

I am also clean shaven because I can't grow facial hair except for a moustache. beards/gotees don't grow out evenly, and splotchy .. some areas don't get any growth.

when I was in my 20's I shaved once a week just to get rid of the peach fuzz and I was in the Air Force. they couldn't tell I hadn't shaved for a week. hehehe there were some guys that could shave in the morning and have more beard at the end of the day than I would have after two weeks.

 

If a person feels the need to change themselves unecessarily just to fit in with a group of people, especially if they like themselves the way they are, then its not worth it. I want to spend time with people who wanna be around me because im me, not because im the kind of person they want me to be. Not everything in this world is about money and looks.

I mean that clothing has gone from protecting us from the climate and our surroundings to being something we wear in some vain attempt to have a false sense of people likeing us. If we gotta wear certain clothing just for people to like us then its not worth it because those people will never really like us, they just like the clothes we got on. I just think we oughta keep clothing for what it was intended for and not wear it unless we absoulutely need to. We've taken clothes and fashion way out of proportion throughout history.

Whats wrong with being what you are? I can feel good about myself and not have to change a damn thing and I can also manage to make friends and have an existence in society. I like power same as the next person but I like the kind of power where I can make the best of who I am and what I got.

Alot of the time when it really boils down to it, its not really what YOU want, its what society conditions you to think that you want. Many people say they like things a certain way but really its not their true feelings, its what society has brainwashed them to think and say. Im not saying this is you but for many other people its true.

I dont think its really because they chose to, because many dont feel they have a whole lot of options when it comes to that sort of thing, they feel they must either wear whats hot or not have friends, so they chose to wear whats hot. They dont do it because they like wearing it, they do it because they want these people to be their friends and they feel the only way to do it is to dress like them and theyd rather subject themselves to wearing that stuff rather than not have those people as their friends. If I had to change myself that much just to get a group of people to accept me, honestly id rather not have any friends or at least not be friends with those kind of people. Theres just so many different people out there in the world and so many options that its not necessary to conform just to become friends with a few particular people when you could stay the way you are and become friends with other people who like you as you are.

If you wear certain things just for the sake of having friends, especially if you dont like wearing those things then you really have no power over yourself or your surroundings, those people who want you to be their friend do because they can make you wear or do anything they want because they know youll do it just to be their friend. Thats dangerous because it can go from clothing choices to doing criminal things and youd be so obsessed with having them as your friends you wouldnt know the difference or care a whole lot what you do.

 

it's just a part of the everlasting conditioning we are subjected to. the day "social expectations" stop, the day the world ends.

it's the individuals duty to go against that, and do what feels best for them.

some people like shaving because they find it more comfortable and what have you. I don't shave anything except my pits, simply because I can't stand the feeling of pit hair. Had I never started shaving it probably wouldn't bother me, because I wouldn't know what it's like to be hairless, eh.

Either way, it's just our society constantly trying to "civilize" us further and further.
I think it's bullshit.

 

Also to add, everyones so fucking afraid of getting old, and their appearances changing. Hence, plastic surgery.

I don't really get it to tell you the truth. I do, to a certain extent, because I remember when I was a young teenager, I was freaked out by the hips I developed and wanted them to go away. But, instead, I ended up accepting them as a part of life, and the everlasting changes that the bodies we are given, go through.

I think plastic surgery is a good term for it, because thats just it, its so plastic. It's not real. When I see people who have done that whole botox and what not, I just have to shake my head.

It's the media, gone to extreme. It's gotten way out of hand, and I expect there's more to come. That's MY fear. I don't even want to see what people will be doing to keep themselves looking "good" 20 years from now.

Vanity can go fuck itself, I say.

 

You and I my dear apples are on the same page....both literally and metaphorically speaking.

 

I think the point of it though is, why is it considered sexy?

Who said a woman has to shave her legs, to be sexy?

That's my point anyway.

And why is "sexy" taken to concern so much in the first place.

Not to sound cliche, but what's inside is what counts. Not how hairy or hairless your legs are.

And, I'm not trying to be a bitch either, just trying to point out some arguments on that particular statment.

"because it's sexy"

just isn't a good enough argument for me, I guess.

 

A girl can be clean and sexy without shaving. Being sexy is just a relative term anyways, whats sexy to one person might not be to another. Women survived hundreds of years before there was any way to shave themselves and they can still do it now without the world ending. The only reason people fuss about it now is because all the big fashion companies wanna make tons of money off beauty products and they cant do that if people decide they wanna live naturally so they brainwash the society to force the women to feel the need to shave and do all these other silly things.

 

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Uh... if you can't be 'clean' with hair, how about guys, does sweat & dirt accumulate in their hair? Or is it just female hair that accumulates sweat & dirt? You can wash hairy legs & armpits -or any other body part- even if it's hairy!

 

It's the same principle behind why most men don't find facial hair on a woman sexy. I don't know if there's any one thing I can point to and say "here's why". It's a collection of various physiological and psychological cues that humankind as a society have come to accept.

This could open up a whole huge debate about body hair - from biological aspects of the supposed role that it plays in pheromone production and retention, to the psychological trigger in men's minds of the ultimate symbol of youth and thus, genetic viability as a mate.

I don't disagree with the argument that a woman can still be clean and seen as sexy, regardless of her body hair by some people. Everyone has their own view of what is sexy, and there's no wrong or right about it. But that doesn't change the fact that there might be a majority of people who do not agree with that viewpoint.

I forgot in my last post on this to bring up one problem I have with this line of logic. There is no accounting in your thinking for demand. These companies would never have existed if people didn't WANT something. It's simple supply and demand. If human beings didn't at some point demand these products, there would be no companies today to make money off of these products that you say they are cramming down our throats. And I challenge your reasoning that these companies CREATED such demand. They certainly know how to twist demand to maximize their profit margins, though I will give you that.

I think that what you take for brainwashing, I simply call "rampant consumerism"....what I mean by that is that there is so much of a need to meet individual demands, and because there is so much disposable income in this country especially, that given anyone's particular desire for some product (no matter how strange), chances are some company is making it now. So for example when you look and see companies putting out beauty product after beauty product, and you imply that these are greedy corporations that are trying to brainwash everyone into looking the same and acting the same. I see it more like these are greedy corporations who are trying to make every dollar they can and so they produce the largest variety of prodcuts to maximize the amount of customers they will attract. Maybe we're just splitting hairs (ouch, bad pun).

Absolutely! That's why I shampoo every day.

 

Most men probably havent seen facial hair on a woman to know weither it looks sexy or not. If you like someone enough, you can find almost anything that occurs naturally about them to be sexy.

Most of those people who say that a woman with body hair isnt sexy say that out of ignorance, they really dont know what a woman looks like with body hair so they cant really know weither theyd think its sexy or not. They simply say it isnt because the fashion industry and other influential people say its not sexy and they just follow suit without really thinking it through.

People who are famous and have alot of influence over society encourage these people to want certain things so it creates a demand and then businesses are made to meet that demand and then when these people go buy these things alot of the money goes back to the famous people who advertise these things and encourage people to buy them.

There wouldnt be so much demand for alot of this stuff if people were not influenced to want this stuff by people who would somehow benefit from brainwashing these people into needing and buying these things. Alot of rich people out there dont get all the money they got just because of their talent.

They want all these people to keep coming back to them and wanting the same thing and spending all their money on this stuff just to make these big companies rich. I dont mind people making money but I dont like them ruining their customer's body image and making them dependant on their merchandise like a drug just to make a buck. People should come to buy this stuff because they genuinely want it, not because they feel they have no other option.

I just think its funny how guys having alot of hair and sweating and being dirty seems to be okay mostly where if a woman did that theyd be looked down on when they have alot less hair and dont sweat or get as dirty as easily. Thats why its basically just some silly modern societal thing because if women having hair was such a problem then people would have said something and done something about it a long time before this, same with guys and this obsession with shaving.

 

If I had the capability of growing normal full facial hair, I'd totally have a beard like the bassist from System of a Down.