What's The Deal With Education?

this sounds cliche, but education truly starts at home. I think I got more out of school than most because I had a parent at home who gave a shit, who made sure I did my homework and instilled in me a love of reading and taught me how to be respectful so I actually got along with my teachers instead of acting like a raging brat. Everything we did on the weekends was educational, from visiting historical sights to visiting the library or art museum.

because I had a solid foundation I was able to take advanced classes all throughout middle and high school which gave me access to the best teachers as well as peers who also cared about school.


it wasn't necessarily the smartest kids who were in classes with me, it was a mix of natural intelligence and kids whose parents pushed and encouraged them.

i would call America's educational system mediocre and my own state's system sub par, but i think if parents encourage learning as a part of every day life its easy enough to supplement what school is lacking.

 

I agree, it starts at home, and early in life. Kids must be exposed to the intellectual, so that they have a chance to develop intellectually. Too many parents dont give a shit, and see their children as a burden that takes away from their own free time and personal life ... these people probably shouldnt be parents.

I grew up watching Bill Nye the science guy, and other educational programs, reading magazines like scientific american, popular science, popular mechanics, national geographic magazines. Never did my parents just sit me in fromt of the TV to watch some garbage program with no intellectual content just so they wouldnt have to deal with me for a few hours.

 

My best friend has spent her entire adult life in public education. She says most of the most important decisions are still made at the state and local level. Feds control some money for special programs for failing schools.

That doesn't sound even remotely like my education. I don't know where you get this shit.

Anyway, it's just a starting point for your life. Before too many years, you're using mostly what you've learned on the job, and elsewhere.

 

These so called public schools you speak of, are no longer institutions of learning. They've long since succumbed to political correctness and became revamped as sensitivity training camps

 

education needs who that anyway

 

Nerd

Sorry but that is a bit hard to take from a known racist and conspiracy theorist. But let’s look at the subject rather that the source.

Critical thinking needs to be learnt and developed and crucially it needs to be backed up with knowledge AND experience.

But you praise that step by step approach elsewhere – so for history (as in math) you begin with the basic information, the time period (dates) then move to the next step looking at the context and sources (the facts) third step making sure you have that information (a test) before moving to the next step debating (with your teachers and fellow students) the differing points of view and interpretations of the context and biases or validity of the sources

As I say you praise this approach in math “From basic arithmetic to calculus, it takes you step by step with plenty of practice problems and instructional videos”
In fact in math there is less opportunity for ‘critical thinking’ (until very high levels) I mean it’s hard to debate if 2+2 is 4 or not.

The certainty of math isn’t mirrored in other fields where there are often conflicting viewpoints.

As to writing and spelling I know how difficult that can be because I’m dyslectic and so I know from personal experience how people are judged and graded on their spelling and writing. I also know from experience how difficult it can be to debate with people when they do not have the vocabulary and grammar to express their ideas coherently.

So yes writing and spelling are important tools.

Lectures are great but tutorials - where you actually get to discuss and debate with the person that gave the lecture- is far, far better.

What you seem to be praising is to me the epitome of bad education.

Also if it’s all free who is going to pay people to teach and research? I mean subjects move on new thinking emerges and new ideas replace old ones. The model you describe could end up with lots of old courses been stuck up online not been replaced because no one is paying educators to replace them.

To me you seem to be describing a dead end.

 

Nerd

You do realize that House of Cards is fiction don’t you, a story, its you know made up?

Did you know that the original HoC was written by a British right wing Conservative MP, Micheal Dobbs (now Baron Dobbs)

 

But as I’ve highlight before the ‘test’ ‘target’ system is very much the neo-liberal/free market model of education.

It’s based on the idea of ‘profit’ in education ‘profit’ is calculated by showing that a child has learnt something and how do you calculate the ‘profit’ well by testing and near constant assessment.

Then you create a market place competing schools against each other using the test results are indicators of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ schools.

In the UK this ‘market’ based system has resulted in more testing and teachers constantly filling out assessments and been pushed to produce the ‘profit’ of good test results – meaning the pressure is on to educate to pass tests not educate to actually learn.

To get things back to real education we need to stop education been seen as a market place where the only goal is to show profitable test results, to me test results are just the beginning of education not its only goal.

 

To me education needs a holistic approach and it needs to be socially equalised.

We have a system where resources are not distributed equally and one of those resources is educated, time rich parents. If someone has educated parents who have the time to pass that education on them then they are very likely to turn out educated and with a love of learning. But not everyone has such parents and that where society needs to intervene to improve things, a few ideas would be to have Kindergartens staffed with early learner teachers that are free to the disadvantaged another thing that could help was adult educations centres that are again free to the poor, but a major step is about class sizes small classes are good for debate and one to one teaching while larger classes are more about keeping discipline and teaching by rote.

But all of that cost money and it could be for that reason that I’ve noticed that some free market, right wing types seem to be pushing the idea of ‘free’ internet education then there would be no need to fund an actual educational system.

 

Balbus you understand there's no room for real debate in public schools right? How long ago were you in school friend?

I think debate is panacea. That is, the ability to formulate a reasoned argument and explain one's positions is panacea. The quickest way to change minds is to introduce a competitive element to the exchange of ideas. The sting of embarrasment over a poorly argued, and poorly reasoned position is the key to progress.

Every controversial issue we are faced with today, creation vs. evolution, capitalism vs. communism, reasons for intervention vs. reasons for isolationism, to FED vs. not to FED. Let the kids, let the people see the most capable debaters argue these points. If we are able to see both sides of every argument we can start making good decisions.

I wrangled my critical thinking skills by watching hours and hours of debate, long after high school. I was an idiot leaving high school, my parents didn't instill logical analysis into me and neither did my schools.

 

Nerd

Why not?

Yesterday when I picked my child up from one.

Thing is that I think you could have pupils engaged in real debates if the system was set up to facilitate that type of learning.

The problem is that many people are not ‘embarrassed’ by their inability to defend their ideas from criticism in any rational or reasonable way. So many people hold onto ideas that really don’t stand up to scrutiny but fit in with their personal prejudices.

But most issues are not black or white as you seem to suggest they are usually much more complex and nuanced. People can have differing priorities and interpretations that can influence their viewpoint and conclusions.

To what degree such views are seen as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ can often depend on the prejudices, priorities and viewpoint of the persons hearing them.

Open and honest debate is a good tool for highlighting flaws or benefits within certain ideas, but often the people promoting an idea are not interested in open and honest debate.

 

That's awesome, Boo, taking a Harvard class on line.....

 

Everybody is an idiot leaving high school, compared to what they are most likely capable of 20 years down the road.

What kind of job do you expect to find where you can challenge authority and humiliate those who disagree with you? Not many jobs like that exist, and I can't think of any that are open to people who are fresh out of school. Disrespecting coworkers and bosses is generally grounds for a letter of reprimand to be placed in your file, which can lead to termination. That's assuming you can get past the interview process. Interviewers are trained to identify and weed out applicants like you.

A lot of professionals are also paid to support a specific position, regardless of how they personally feel about it. They can't let their feelings show.

Debate teams and classes still exist here, with competitions between schools.

 

There were no debates about anything in any classes when I came through the education system. Input from students was basically not tolerated. I think the repetition of

basic math and basic english was about all I learned in the very early grades. One tiny example for me was when a test question was presented thusly: All cats can retract their claws. Therefore a Cheetah can retract its claws. Now, I read a LOT out of school because I liked to read. (and still do.) So I raised my hand and tried to correct the mistake but the teacher was NOT interested in doing a little research and shut me down immediately. This 10 year old suddenly thought that something was wrong. To be honest about it, I never really had an inspiring teacher in grammar school OR high school.

To learn the basics by rote,as I mentioned and did ,was the way to go when you are a little one in the first few grades. And still is. I have always told my kids that education
should be for the education itself. The more one learns, the more one can see the connections between nearly everything to everything else, extant and ancient. The connections learned can/should make one a curious person and spur one on to continue the learning process throughout life.

To debate is to posit ones beliefs and in open them to scrutiny, which is a very healthy thing to do,IMO. I'm certainly not the brightest bulb on any ones tree and I don't claim to be---I'm pretty much self educated. ( which opens me up to the possible fact that I have had a fool for a teacher!) My major in the partial couple of years I went to Jr college was ping pong, alcohol and pussy. I was asked to leave. So it goes.

That the process of education seems to be training one to jump on the zombie treadmill instead of producing inquiring , questioning minds has certainly had a deleterious effect on the political scene these days. Also, IMO, critical thing skills should begin very early in school--perhaps even as early as 3rd or fourth grade after the rote learning is mastered. The axiom that 'an ignorant populace is a compliant populace' has never been more true.

 

I was fortunate enough to have some teachers in high school that really pushed an "alternative" curriculum, and encouraged independent thought. I was also a poor kid, dually lucky to spend four years in a fairly affluent town, with a good public high school. But luck was all it was, and without that who knows what would have happened. The inequality in our education system is savage. Growing up, I moved enough to attend at least 5 public schools, and the discrepancies between them was astounding, although I didn't think much of it at the time.

Then there is an aspect of school being "what you make it", but first you need to learn that education is valuable, in some way. Is the tendency to think critically inborn or learned? So many important questions here.

 

I did not enjoy grade school and high school curriculums. I found those classes way too structured and very rarely was there the opportunity for real critical thinking, it was usually more like paraphrasing the particular statements which 'best' summed up the material.

However, I enjoyed college courses much more. Perhaps the ability to choose the courses I wanted to, made the college material much more engaging. I also truly learned how to critically think, understand rhetoric, use logical analysis, etc. in college.

 

One way to get there as an adult is to be too trusting, then become bitterly disappointed.

 

I think learned. Nearly 100%. Aristotle invented deductive reasoning. Until about 2000 years ago everyone was in the dark. We stand on the shoulders of the giants who came before us. Given enough time reasoning could become as second nature as language, but it's too recent an acquisition evolutionarily to imagine it as such at this point. We have to work at it.

Would anyone chime in with their view of the benefits of debate? It's trial by fire of your reasoning skills and ability to articulate the extent to which your stance is based on evidence. Can you guys think of any activity that sharpens those tools like debate does?