I see. So the fact that it's of symbolic intent makes those lives lost more important? Or are you just looking for another excuse to go off on one of your antil-Islamic rants?
the intent makes the event more important and islam was the motivation also the event as a symbol symbols are important like legends 9/11 is important in the islamic world more than say 3000 people getting killed in some war, islam is based on symbols many of them lessons learned from what other people thought were defeats
It was a symbolic as it helped shaped the way that the US is becoming. It was a shocking series of events and I challenge anyone to have not sat staring transfixed at the television as the day unfolded. Any human being dying uneccessarily is tragic, it doesn't matter if it is from war, a terrorist attack, an act of nature or just an accident. Many people die every day, but these events showed just how vulnerable we all are, it wasn't a group of foreigners dying in a famine or earthquake in a far away land. It was people in the so called 'civilised' west. People in the US lost that "It'll never happen to us" mentality. The US have been getting more and more imperialistic for many years but these events gave them a licence to go on the all out offensive. This is why I compared the events with Hitler using the burning of the Reichstag to further his cause. If any good has come out of it, it is that more and more people are becoming aware of just how self-motivated and globally destructive the US government really is.
well from my point of view all I hear is blah blah blah western imperialism blah blah blah its all our fault , or tony blairs fault or george bushs fault and you seem to miss the whole fucking point
the point is there is too forms of imperialism here you have blair bush and the west and you have islam you have another way the world could be it could be a theocracy or a collections of them the people who organised 9/11 and beslan believe in a different future to you its about religion
I was at work moving a department from one building to another. I first heard about it around 9, right before the second plane hit. As I was watching TV I saw the second plane hit the 2nd tower. That's one day that I will be able to remember EVERYTHING from when I woke up until I went to bed.
expand on this?... Spell out what you mean?... I am interested... especially the "It's about religion" statement.
Precisely. That's all you hear. You've never paid any attention to the fact that everyone agrees with the notion that radical Islam is a bad thing. You're too busy spouting your own form of extremism that casts every Muslim in a bad light. Most people on these boards are opposed to Western and American imperialism, but are also opposed to Islamic fundamentalism. But you're too busy indoctrinating yourself to hear that. You only hear what you want to hear.
well 9/11 to supporters of ben laden was about religion, its in the tradition of a small number of muslims inflicting a defeat on a much greater power through incredible bravery or fanaticism depending on how you look at it. islam started out as a form of military imperialism so its pretty easy for ben laden to get people to support him. it still is a form of cultural imperialism pushing the arab culture and language thats why you get converts taking arabic names dressing in a arab way learning the language what I mean is you have two imperialisms if you went back in time to the middle ages you would see large islamic states fighting large christian states or during the cold war you had commonists fighting capitalists well at the moment the only real state fundimentalists have is Iran and what ben ladens saying is ok I dont have a state but I have a agenda I cant at the moment fight you with equal big weapons but I dont need them I dont see him or what he represents as western inspired or controlled its a thing of its own right thats goes back to the start of the religion and really took off again intellectually after the war the agenda what he hopes to achieve is a islamic world thats is long term goal. short term things are getting rid of present rulers of middle east but he would see no chance of long term peace with the west he would devide the world into two parts dar salam the land of peace thats inside muslim states or in muslim communitys and dar al harb land of war thats the rest of the world I spend a lot of my time involved in this subject did before sept 11 so Im more concerned with him than western imperialism I know something about western imperialism but out of the two I would prefer that it doesnt mean I dont listern if I dont agree with you
This is quite true, Islamic fundamentalism has an imperialistic agenda. What I would point out is that the power underlying Islamic extremism is simply no match for that which underlies western capitalistic imperialism. Islamic extremists are limited to a few spectacular events such as 9/11, Beslan and bombings of embassies, nightclubs, NGOs and other symbols of the west. While spectacular and hugely symbolic they are not going to win territory or change the cultural or religious makeup of the world. I know exactly what Jonny's response to this will be. He will say that all supposedly Westernised Muslims like the 1.5million or so currently living in Britain are actually fifth columnists. That there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. That once given the signal, they will rise up like drones and overcome the nonbelievers. That they are just pretending to integrate into our society, just waiting for the time when they can chop off our heads and stone us to death just like in the good old days. This is an assumption for which there is very little basis. It is also a fairly offensive assumption which comes close to extreme cultural prejudice. It takes no account of cultural evolution, it takes no account of people having a unique and individualistic relationship with their faith. It sees an entire people as nothing more than automata based upon a theoretical reading of the "true purpose" of Islam. The unique failing of this conception is to discount the complexity of human experience and cultural development and to see people not as individuals but as a lumpen mass with a single mind and a single purpose. In other words, it's a classic case of depersonalising that which you fear. Things are far more complicated than that. OK I realise I've just written a response to a reply you haven't even written yet, Mr 2Mad. I know you so well... And around and around we go...
Don't be an idiot. It has nothing to do with whether you agree with me or not. It's about the fact that you constantly fail to understand that being opposed to Western imperialism and war-mongering does not preclude being also opposed to Islamic fundamentalism.
