Which is more important to you?

you claim free market brings freedom because than you are free to make a business, profit off of your friends, have them work 40+ hours a week for you while you reep the profits they create... ok, sure the assholes with a thirst for power and control will be free to do that, but what about those who do not want to take part of the power struggle? What choices do we have? Our freedom is limited because we are forced to live in a society where we have to go along with your system. so the argument that free market brings freedom is false... it only brings freedom to those who want it, those who want nothing to do with it are being coerced into it.
its the same argument both ways.

 

You are forced to live that way because of government, not a free market. If you choose not to participate in the free market, you can survive by other means--it is not coercive. A true free market isn't. If you choose not to participate in government's plan, you go to prison. Ouch...

The way you structure your argument, I assume you are arguing that libertarianism would create corporate monopolies. Do they not exist already? And why is that? With all the regulations and taxes DRIVING PRICES UP and it is no one wonder rent is skyrocketing, automobiles cost twice as much as they should, or you pay 27 different types of tax for a failing system that keeps going awry. Why?

Monopolies, in and of themselves, are not harmful. Coercion is harmful. Thus a coercive monopoly is harmful. Under libertarianism, all the money the government wastes now would be used against every type of initial coercion. As for monopolies...Libertarians have no problems with the monopolies that exist when people desire no competition, or those that exist when that's the choice of consumers. But, when a monopoly uses its power to forcibly prevent competition, be it a street peddler or a multi-national corporation, libertarians would step in (to protect the liberty of individuals in free exchange).

THAT is not slavery, unless you choose to enslave yourself. Government over-extension in private affairs IS slavery.

 

Maybe this has already been mentioned (I didn't bother to read the entire thread), but I think one needs to distinguish between equality under the law (which is desirable, and a necessary aspect of a free society), and economic equality (which is undesirable, incompatible with freedom, and a PC term for communism).

 

Although, I am pretty sure I cleared this up earlier, I could be mistaken.

I believe in EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. I think my friends here believe in the ECONOMIC THEORY...

 

Freedom without a doubt is more important, besides, freedom pretty much is close enough to equality.. If you have freedom, then you can be as equal as you wish to be.

 

Penn Jillette-- "Luck is probability taken personally."

 

freedom is an aspect of equality (freedom for all), tax doesnt violate freedom, as u agree not to murder u agree to pay tax, as collateral to govt for their duties of protecting u, and ur freedom

 

The government's sole purpose is to protect our rights and defending us from initial coercion. A government that did only those two things, could do them better and at a small fraction of the cost.

Before 1913, federal income taxes were rare and short-lived. America became the most prosperous nation on earth. The Nanny State had nothing to do with it.

Taxes are essentially for a service provided by the government. I don't disregard taxes, but think they should be voluntary, not compulsory. Especially taxes on income, estate and gifts. Sales taxes on products, I personally have no problem with. Taxes for services as optional I have no problem with.

Stealing is stealing regardless. You don't have a right to steal and you don't have the right to give the government the authority you don't have yourself.

 

Freedom ...always ..
Most of the time a person can be equal or hold the same capacity as another if they so wish......sometimes gratned we are not due to physical or mental limitations ....there are fewer limits than we realize ..mankind holds a far greator capacity in every way then we know .. we in a way limit ourselves ...a prisoner unto thyself ...we are practically brainwashed to eat , drink , sleep and work a certain way and so we work so hard to be jsut like each other ..like robots ...exactly like each other .. so equal .. why desire this ? ..but that may relate to a different topic ..
To be treated or to act equally is a question in my mind...
....without freedom we cannot go beyond beyond the limits that man has set or the limits we set on ourselves ... that may differ according to the situation and outside influences. The opposite of freedom unfortunately as we know is the brick wall .. the negative outside influence, but with freedom .. true freedom that a person may find with themselves or in this society then that benefit of how that equality should be treated and it cannot be taken away... but we should not focus so much I think on being equal becuase I dont want to be equal to Joe or susie .. Joe and his wife Susie are smart ...clever and running the country in to the ground .. eh ?
Without freedom there is no equality ...it is not so important that Susie be just like Joe .. or vice versa .. its important that we do all that we can do .. and in some cases reach beyond the limits we set unto ourselves by looking at our neighbor to be just like them or treated just like them .....why not just be all that we can be and still remain who we really are...depends on the perspective ..

 

Cheers, K!

 

if u saying freedom is the vehicle that reaches equality then ur proving my point equality is the ultimate goal, and freedom is one aspect of that
i mean socially is people are free no slavery, and whatnot, is that not part of equality?

 

Freedom can be obtained without coercion.
Freedom cannot be obtained through it.

Equality cannot be obtained without coercion, unless we all became perfect.

The only way to reach "equality" is through freedom, but it will never happen without love....complete love.

That will never happen without unlimited education which, in turn, cannot happen without FREEDOM.

Freedom is the greatest value one can hope to have.

 

nope

anything is possible .. the question was a choice between the two

My personal goal is to be all that you can/want to be ....not to be just a copy in effor to be equal....if we are free to create a new way then we are not only equal but blind to the ceiling and everything else that limits us ..what blinds us is that focus on the wrong thing ...I dont want to focus on being equal .. I want to focus on a new way .. a better way and continue being what/who I am free to be and if it means that soemone is e

 

u said "You don't have a right to steal and you don't have the right to give the government the authority you don't have yourself"
but thats the point of govt, it has the authority mediate our differences and protect us, reprecussions (sp?) included

u said voluntary income tax, but compulsory sales tax...what did the govt do to earn a hand in sales tax, they arent providing the service, please explain?

i respect ur system its jsut too ideal, all people arent able bodied (disabled people cant contribute to our society) voluntary charity isnt dependable look at the situation with old people, almost as a whole old people are livign at subsistance level b/c believe it or not the guys at enron, or haliburton, or shell, or national amusements, arent ready or willing to empty out their pockets into the local nursing homeits liek this soc. security thing, when i am no longer able to work, i want gaurenteed income, i dotn wanna chance it on the hope some rich fat cat exploiting brown people in asia and south america, has a change of hart and decides to give me his spare change...
i keep hearing the word economic freedom, economics shouldnt be about individual it should be about the whole
some believe greed is good, and collective selfishness wil balance the world, some believe in communal equity, and that we have to duty to look out for the little people...
w/e thats the ongoing debate, republican v democrat; liberatarian(sp?) v socialist
this debate isnt going anywhere, altho it was fun, lets consider dropping the discussion, its getting repetitive, and my arms are tired

 

by equality i mean the belief that all citizens should have the same access to power and fair treatment in all aspects of society, whether in political, social, economic, or legal arenas.
no coersion needed only effort

 

So, you rely on the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to provide these things for you efficiently? ROFL...

You must be disappointed.

 

anything is possible .. the question in my view was a choice between the two

My personal goal is to be all that you can/want to be ....not to be just a copy in effort to be equal....if we are free to create a new way then we are not only equal but blind to the ceiling and everything else that limits us ..what blinds us is that focus on the wrong thing ...I dont want to focus on being equal .. I want to focus on a new way .. a better way and continue being what/who I am free to be and if it means that someone is equal to me or I to them then great but I am still focused on simply being better for myself and how I can contribute .... someone else may observe and not see me as equal but is that going to stop me ... if I am free ..then it doesnt matter becuase I will carve my own way ...ok so they knocked me down on the road of in-equality ..but guess what I got back up and made my own road.. my own way .. and possibly some will follow or share that vision ..or some go beyond me..its doesnt matter .. I am free .. I go my way ...

 

i agree with teh later part completely, very idealistic but i agree
but how are u going to further education tho w/out funded public schools but
i think ur version freedom grants freedom to some (ie without fully funded pub. schools how can u become a doctor if ur poor? its not likely thats not freedom)
i think equality is key, if that kid wasnt as poor as his counterparts, and schools were adequately funded, he could be anything he wants...

 

Taking anything from another with his/her consent is THEFT. Not even fancy dressed officials have that right.

Now, you say "effort". I agree, but where will it come from? Will all people agree to it or will they have to be...*ahem*....you know that "C" word I use....

 

When I spoke of education, I wasn't referring to the horrible public school system at all. This miserable failure has produced a reduction in proper education if anything.

If compulsory public education is the only choice, then it should be at the least funded to progress not digress...