so stoney I take that as a no, you cannot dispute what I have to say, but instead make a ad hominem attack on me saying I am in someway a hateful person therefore my arguments are false. this isnt based on the argument or islam rather on your perception of me and is a debating fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem merry christmas again
im surprised you feelin "attacked" by me ..i never said you were a hateful person either! when you live with the idea of hate, you tend to invite all these assumptions and fears peace to you jonny
well there is a idea of hate out there , if there are passages that say kill the atheists, having a atheist point out those passages doesnt effect the original hate in the passage against atheists . people who ignored the hatred of mohammed pagans jews christians ect ect usually ended up dead or slaves . what approach would you have taken if you were a jew reading mein kampf would you have said this contains hatred of jews, but I will ignore it in case talking about it brings me hatred . hows dubai we have a poster on the uk forum whose from there
you claim to know much of islam ..did you know, the first muazzin was a "slave" who was bought by abu-bakr ibn siddique (first man in islam) and the prophet of islam's closest companion ..only to set him free! did you know, muslims all over regardless of their color, status in the society all come together to pray without discrimination. no separate rows either, leave alone separate masjid unlike the black churches, white churches that have been existent in the so-called developed world the 2million plus from all walks of life who've arrived in mecca to perform hajj are from among the richest, the poorest ..and they're all joined with one voice ..and a piece of cloth to cover them - this is the equality islam promotes yes, we're just more into killin and enslavin .. leave the hate and you'll be peaceful with yourself jonny. i have all the sympathy for your ex-muslim-iranian friend who's put up a website to spread "the light". if you're bein driven by the hate you feel for your friend's hate of the religion, think again. i've lived with the iranians and unfortunately, there's much hate in most ..they're driven by their hate for their rulin ayatollahs and theyve come to hate islam as they see the ayatollahs as the representation of the religion and they hate the arabs of today for their ancestors, who brought islam to their empire over 1400 years back! you seem to be doin the same. you see people as representation of the religion. youve been brainwashed by people like ali sina and your hate for the religion, and those that follow it has blinded you to a degree where you attack the prophet of islam with absurd claims why people have not bothered with you in the past 4-5 years is not becoz youve been sayin the truth, but bcoz you're driven by hate ..and hate can never allow you to come with an open mind and heart to really want to understand what islam represents or what people may be sayin or tryin to peace
Jonny....do you FEAR islam? thats really the point of this post. Many terrible deeds have been commited out of fear.
And by the way Jonny, by comparing the Koran to Mein Kampf, you automatically lose this discussion due to Godwin's Law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
I think Ewok is getting a thrill and a bit of a confidence boost by supposing that Islam and Muslims are putting fear into anyones heart. These people are tolerated and its a good thing that the Western world still has some of its 'Christian Values' in being tolerant and refusing to be lured into a fight. Why? Because if I was a radical Muslim (like Osama or PLO or MILF etc) I would be TERRIFIED that Russians and Americans might decided to get into a serious battle with the 'Muslim World. If Israel really really wanted to do so - they would easily remove Arabs from their land and Russia could easily remove Chechnya off the planet. Russia could reduce the MiddleEast to a 'Sea of Glass' if it really wanted to pick a fight. Sorry.. but Muslims are not 'scary' and Im sure that some crazy 'militia' groups could EASILY be kidnapping Arab tourists and cutting their heads off with a kitchen knife if they wanted to too. Thats doesnt make them important or somehow 'Big Bad' anything.
Your forgetting that a sea of glass isnt easy to exploit economically, and if israel where to kick all palestinians out of their land, there would be a potentially fatal war fought between them and the rest of the middle east. Many people are afraid of muslims, but not of real muslims, of ones they see on TV. If people didnt fear Muslims, the war in Iraq never would have happened, or do you believe that Bush could have convinced the majority of Americans that a war in Estonia would be a good thing like he did with Iraq? no, there are 2 wars being fought by Bush, and whereas the war for the streets of Baghdad may not be going according to his plan, the propagand war that is waged in the Living rooms across America is unfortunately being blitzed by Bush and his corporate thugs. How? They are simply playing on peoples fears of another culture, making them out to be greedy, barbaric and cruel. Before the quarter of this century, I predict that we shall see who is truly greedy, barbaric and cruel, and I fear that it shall be as simple as looking in the mirror, that is to say unless we cast off this corporate islamophobic "civilization" and bring ourselves into a rational and sustainable era.
Sure, The Muslim MiddleEast is the Victim here. Sure. For the record: Yes, I do believe the Taliban gov of Afghanistan was a vile, evil and disgusting regime. I dont know if 'Fear' is the right word but I think there is reason to 'fear' a bunch of fucked up extremists running Iran. Of course, you do see a certain perception in each and every country. The American News will tend to give a different perspective and usually one that is very suspicious or critical of its own policies and leaders. Now fire up Al Jazeerah or a few of those fine Media presentations from Syria. OH SHIT! Its absolutely RIDICULOUS what a great big freaking propaganda machine these things are LOL! I cant believe what Im watching on Al Jazeera.. lol.. its like watching those 'Hitler Youth Films' from WW2 Nazis in the way its so obviously designed to push an agenda and fabricate all kinds of ridiculous suspicions and turn the viewer towards blatant anti-american sentiments. Almost always telling the story in a 'Muslims are victims' type of view. Sad. Look, here are the facts. The Western Nations were getting sick and tired of certain MiddleEast nations fucking with them. Trying to pick fights, be 'scary' and WANTING to appear scary and threatening and dangerous. (See: Iran). Now guess what - Taliban loses Afghanistan and another thing, No more Iraq for Saddam either. Guess what - keep this shit up Syria and you can say goodbye too. Thats not pretty - Im just saying thats how its gonna roll. It not like appeasing these people helps.
Iran is far less a danger to the world than Israel The WMD's arent in Iraq, they are in Iowa Remember, from their point of view, it is us in the west who are the terrorists, makes sense too, with 200,000 dead Iraqi civilians? and for what? not security, but oil. we are terrorists who fight in the name of greed, fighting in the name of a god would be a step up from where we are. watch CNN and those fucking "heroic stories" of some dipshit who killed a bunch of Iraqi "terrorists". those "heros", they are the terrorists. I get the feeling that a few people here are pro-war, which surprises me given the forum, still, i believe in free speech, so spread your ignorance if you must.
I suppose this depends on what you mean by 'danger' but you would want to consider this: -Israel believes Iran has a right to exist as an independant nation and has no theocratic reason to believe Iran should ever be removed from its place or destroyed in any way. -Iran officially and zealously insists that Israel should not have the right to exist, not in the MiddleEast anyways! Iran also has a theocratic commitment that Allah (its final authority) will see to it that Israel is destroyed. So, I suppose either country can be a Danger to anyone but a rational look at the facts and intentions would put Iran in the lead. Thats going by what THEY CLAIM and not by just making up other opinions. I dont agree with you on this. Not based on what Iranians have told me and by taking a good look at the publications and various sources from Iran. I think Iranians know full well what is really happening and why. However For purposes of exploiting sympathy, political capital and justfication of anti-western sentiments they encourage each other to 'act as if' there is some opposite view of things. BTW.. Saddam did a fantastic job of causing more death, destruction and instablity to Iran than any Jews ever could have hoped to. If I was an Iranian I would be pretty impressed with the USA/British right now. Actually its for security. Since Saddam is removed there is far less instability in the world today. Not to mention the Taliban. Not to mention US and British Forces now being able to be based right next door to Syria and Iran. Not to mention Lybia turning over a new leaf for cooperation. Not to mention (and this might be the main thing) that everybody who wants to 'Suicide Bomb' America gets to do it in the comfort of their own backyard and not on US, British territory. The USA news is surprisingly silent on these things and the US Military doesnt like giving out too much on these raids and counter offenses. Anyways.. IF you are talking about US Soldiers taking out people who would like to re-instate the Baath Party or are part of civilian-killing terrorist Orgs then I most definatley do call it 'Heroic'. I think you are abusing the word 'Terrorist' so that it has no meaning anymore and Soldiers in an armed conflict with opponents means the same thing as Al Quaida killing 3,000 unarmed women and children on their way to work. Nobody is 'ProWar' in the sense you would 'like war' or 'want' to go to war. There are people like me who are 'pro war' when it becomes the last thing you can do in order to, ultimately, save the most amount of lives and gain the most amount of security, quality of life and safety.
my god....you actually eat that horse shit up, dont you? how the hell is the world safer with Iraqs invasion?????? Is Iraq safer? god no, look at all the instability that exists there now. Its opinions like this that perpetuate American Imperialism and Zionist Expansionism. If your not some Oil CEO, you have nothing to gain from the war in Iraq. Security?> what a crock of shit, what danger is there? I am far more likely to be struck down by lightning then by some wacky terrorist. September 11.....that kind of reminds me of the burning of the Reichstag......both were not commited by any clear group (osama denies ordering those attacks, and it is highly unusual for a terrorist to not up and say "look at what i have done", indeed usually multiple groups claim responsibility) and gave their respective governments the power to wage the wars they wanted to wage. At any rate, being a Canadian, at least people who favour that war are the vast minority in my locale, and rightfully so. Any people who support the war are very unpatriotic, for all men are brothers and humanity by nature knows no borders.
Well I think a lot of people who would have been murdered, raped and had their lives destroyed by Saddam and his disgusting psychopath of a Son and Heir would like to disagree with you right now. I think a lot of people in Kuwait who remember what amounted to a mass-murder and rape and pillage of their independant nation by Hussein would like to disagree with you now. I think just about everyone on the planet just sighed in relief knowing that Libya was so impressed with the invasion (and their name being on the 'next' list) that they just opened all their doors and commited to joining the planet for peaceful ways instead of creating secret WMDs and acting like some rogue wacko state. I think a lot of Lebonese might want to disagree with you. Sure sure... people say Syria just 'happened to do this' and it had nothing to do with a US and British Military power asking them if they want a piece of the action themselves. Of course there will be lots of shit to do since its only been three years and thats next to nothing when you talk nation rebuilding. Germany and Japan might have some disagreements with you on this too? They both went on to become two of the most successful nations on the planet .. and thats just within a few decades afterwards! Iraq needs at least another 2 years before the success begins. Heck. Saddam is not even executed yet. America has zero interest in Imperialism. Seriously. They have a big interest in 'Commercial' Imperialism. Meaning: They would LOVE to open lots of Iraqi owned CocaCola, McDonalds and Walmart Franchises inside a wealthy and populous Iraq. Zionists will never expand. See the borders of Israel right now - they will never go a centimeter further than that. They dont need to do anything expansionist-wise. Eventually they will move out Palestinians and The West Bank and Gaza will just blend in with everything else but they already own those areas. Your insane and highly deluded if you dont understand that Osamas 'Al Quaida' was responsible for these murders. This is true for other horrific mass-murders and not just Africa, Indonesia, Spain. But lightening you cannot stop. You CAN stop Al Quaida - just ask the assholes throwing a party and getting hit with a missile last week. Also, you can bait them into blowing themselves up in front of US and Canadian Soldiers instead of Civilians. Also - You can blow their heads off in the longest distanced sniper shot ever recorded by a Canadian Soldier. Maybe in your locale but not a true statement on behalf of Canadians. Canada btw is supporting US troops in the Middle East where they heroically killed off as many Taliban as possible (and arrested more) and just lost soldiers due to a roadside bomb. Canada also runs US ships back and forth to the '1 mile' line of Iraq and also has Soldiers fighting in Iraq under an exchange program. Actually no. Taliban leaders are sick fucks who get off on murdering people and then directly supporting the murder of US (and actually many other including many Arabs) by use of Terrorist attacks (mass murders of innocent people). So they are anti-humanity and destroy brotherhood. What kind of stupid logic are you running here anyways? We should.. what.. NOT stop murders because 'after all' we are all 'brothers' and warring against them 'feels bad'. Ok. Anyways.. I think the War in Iraq has taken too long although that is not necessarily somethign you can predict either. Even still.. 3 years instead of 2 is not the end of the world in terms of a big picture. As far as 'Heros' there is no doubt in my mind who are the most Heroic people I have seen in all of this: The Iraqi People going to Vote. Absolutely amazing! Can you believe we live in a free nation where our experts are actualy concerned we might have low voter turnout because of 'cold weather' or because people are 'tired from Christmas holidays' and these sorts of excuses for our Jan.23rd Elections!? These incredible heros went into the streets with BOMBS and SNIPERS trying to stop them from voting by MURDERING THEM...... and we wont vote because its snowing outside!? Personally I think every Canadian voter should have to watch a simple 5 minute documentary on the Iraq Hero Voters before Jan 23rd... just to remind us what real Democratic courage is really all about!
ummm... no. I don't think Canadians need to watch anything having to do with Iraq before we vote. Just because there are some Canadian troops in Iraq doesn't mean that your average Canadian supports the "war".
Do you have any Surveys or Poll results to share on that? ummmm.. actually I think the 30+% of Canadian voters who cant be bothered to go and vote should be asked to explain that to the 60+% of Iraqi voters who went and voted while bullets and bombs were going off around them and suicide bombers were intent on murdering as many of them as possible. Just a suggestion.
meh... whatever dude. Where is this country you live in with the 100% voter turn out? I don't need Surveys or Poll results. All I have to do is open my eyes... I am Canadian. My family and friends are (for the most part) Canadian. I don't need a Poll to tell me what common sense and rudimentary awareness tells me just fine.
Thats the shame of it. Countries where there is total unihibited freedom to vote.. even given a mandatory four hours away from work - and they still have turnout at 70%.. even 60 and downright shameful 40-50% turnout. Shameful when compared to 60+% of Iraqis turning out despite the threat of DEATH! I was curious if you had any polls indicating Canadian support for the Iraqi invasion. I realise you and your circle of friends are representing something here but then again a Party which has supported and does still support the Iraq invasion is doing very well in the Polls. Not saying that is the reason they are heading to an election win alone - but that doesnt seem to jive with your unofficial survey of Canadians sentiments?
not really. the PC party is ahead in the polls for a lot of reasons. A lot of Canadians are pissed at the Liberal Party because of its' mismanagement of funds. While there are other parties in Canada which you can vote for, a majority of the votes ususally end up being cast for the 2 parties I've already mentioned. The PCs are winning the advanced polls due, in part, to a Liberal Party backlash, and partly because a lot of people seem to think voting for any other party would be a wasted vote. The war in Iraq isn't much of an issue with most Canadians. It was 2, 3, 4 years ago... but its dragged on and on... and we have other things to deal with. Iraq is tied to Bush in most minds. Aside from an occasional eye rolling or head scratching, Canadians, for the most part, try to ignore his existance. When he won the last election, a lot of us just gave up protesting Whats the point in caring and protesting when Americans just re-elect him and by doing so, re-elect the war? Basically, each Canadian political party has sooo much going on in its' platform that it would be rare for a party to win based on one specific policy. What is important to Nova Scotians and Newfoundlanders really doesn't mean much to a Saskatchewanian... and vice versa. Honesltly, the PC's position in Iraq doesn't enter into the equation for most Canadians. I, personally, will be voting for the New Democratic Party (NDP) which is actually more liberal than the Liberals, but my province has a long history of voting NDP and having it count for something. My mom votes NDP, my stepdad votes (usually)Liberal. My father, who is a farmer, usually votes PC (as they usually have the most farm aid in their platform)... but my father is NOT behind the "war" in Iraq. My friends range from uber-liberal, to fairly conservative...just because I belong to the Hip Forums doesn't mean that everyone I know is liberal, eh?