Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

I, for one, cannot simply give up a scientific, rational, reasonable viewpoint in order to "believe". In addition, I do not think God expects us to do so.

Personally, I find faith quite reasonable, and God quite rational, and reasonable. But He has a way of presenting things to us in "pictures", in symbolic, allegorical form, in the Old Testament. That's why people have problems with literalisms such as the matter of "Eve" being constructed from one of Adam's "ribs". Knowing modern science, and anatomy, and surgical techniques, they find it quite illogical to imagine that anyone could take a single rib and construct an entire person from it.

Well, to me, the "rib" signifies something, not a literal "rib", but the eternal, resurrection life of God. Adam was "put to sleep", as was Christ, on the cross, and from His side, "out came blood and water", signifying redemption, and the eternal life. The rib signifies this life, because it was said through prophecy in the Old Testament, "not a rib of him shall be broken", referring to Christ on the cross. Typically, those condemned to death were crucified, and their leg bones were broken so that they could not support themselves, and therefore, suffocated, not being able to breathe.

The eternal, resurrection life of God can never be broken.

The allegory of "Adam" and "Eve" represent Christ, and the church, whose sole existence and being issues from the living Christ, who is the Spirit. Without Christ as the Spirit, the church could not exist, or have being. The church came into existence through the resurrection life of God, in Christ, as proven in John 20, where Jesus, for the first time, calls His disciples "brothers". And asserts that they have the same "Father" as He. Before His crucifixion and resurrection, He only called them His disciples, His followers.

God, a rational God, would not expect people to simply "believe" without some form of assurance, some evidence of His existence.

The model of "faith" is shown in the story of Abraham, who, through no great faith of His own, was led by God into a land of which he was not familiar, paralleling both the Christian life, and the life of the children of Israel. God led Abraham, not by his own merit or endurance, but through the sovereignty of divine circumstance. Abraham was not "faithful" in the sense that many, who idealize his example, assert. He did not immediately obey God when called, neither did he completely obey God in any sense, but only, in a sense, "begrudgingly", and "in spite of himself". He even tried to pawn off his own wife to a king who he was afraid of, saying that she was his "sister", when the king showed interest.

But God did not expect Abraham to simply "believe". This only came about after God had appeared multiple times to Abraham, speaking to him each time. This was the source of Abraham's "faith", not some virtue of himself.

So, true "faith" does not preclude reason, or a rational mind. Those who believe it should, are only setting themselves and others up for "cultic" behavior, where one is expected to put his own, rational, reasoning mind on hold, and simply "believe", blindly, what is offered them through a charismatic leader.

I believe in Jesus as God's manifestation, and the Spirit as His conveyance. I only believe, because I have had many instances in my life of God's appearing and speaking. Otherwise, I would surely still have remained a Buddhist.

The spiritual journey is a path, and many are on it, but at differing "stations" along the way. We're not all at the same place. In this sense, you have to give people a "break", if they don't believe exactly the way you do. Warnings are good, but can only be effective in those who are ready and receptive.

God, in the bible, through Paul, even allows for those who are not "believers", but act according to the dictates of their own conscience, which was also created by God. If a man acts according to his/her conscience, he/she is rewarded by God. This is clear in Paul's letter to the Romans. Now the conscience isn't "God Himself", but was created, installed by God, in man, in order to preserve him.

When Adam was expelled from the garden, man was no longer governed directly by God, but rather, by the conscience. When mankind even left this obedience, further degrading, he came under the rule of other men. This is always the way things deteriorate, in stages.

Today, God desires to bring man back to Himself, so He provided a way, in Christ, as our Redeemer and Savior. Through Him, as the Spirit, we can again have access to the Father.

 

Thanks that was helpful.

 

OWB:

Your point being?

Wheat is wheat, and weeds are weeds, and rolexes? You tell me! Do you have a favourite?! : D

 

The point being is, what I was saying was an illustration and which watch or for that matter which Rolex is not the point of the illustration, just like there are many types of wheat but that is not the point of Jesus' illustration and to bring it up ignores the whole of an illustration.

 

I think the watch thing is bullshit. Why do people think Rolex is worth more ? Because loud people say it is. It is the same thing with god/gods/universe. What this thing is that is vast does not need a watch. And it does not care what we call it and it does not write stories for us to argue for who is more good or more bad. It is men who do these stupid things. For me I have best watch and most accurate. I can look the shadow of tree and say what time it is.

 

You are welcome.

 

I guess it depends on what you mean by religion. There are religions that believe that the Earth is carried on the backs of elephants and turtles, now that is a pretty big gap. But the Bible doesn't say that and in fact says the Earth is hung on nothing, which given our knowledge now, is pretty accurate.

Like most, you will probably believe that as long as no one steals from you, rapes your wife or abuses your children but you will more than likely change your mind if it happens to you or someone you love.

If, as you just said, you don't believe in good and bad, then why do you say something bad happened?

The Earth orbits the Sun. Is that the "one and only truth" or are there really other alternatives?

How do you know that such exists?

I did but still didn't find the answer, perhaps you could point it out for me.

Just because anyone can use it, doesn't make it a bad point, it depends on how it is used.

Okay.

Interestingly Jesus pointed out that most that call themselves "Christian" would not be his disciples. That being true it might not be as easy to find true Christianity as some might think and in fact some might get discouraged and stop looking before they find true Christianity.

Well, the reason God is the one and only is because God is the one and only. Besides, the things some of these other gods think is fun is burning your own children alive, so I can see why God might object to them.

And you probably don't know the half of it.

First, Jesus spoke in parables and Luke 16 is no exception and there is much in and about that parable that shows it was not talking about a "real" place but was addressing the very conditions that the Pharisees, he was talking to, were experiencing at the time.

Jesus, was well aware of the truths which already had been stated in the Bible. Such as, "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) So Jesus would not be contradicting that.

Yes, false "Christianity" does use the pagan concept of "Hellfire" to try to coerce people but the Christian truth is that such a concept is just not true and as for heaven, most of mankind will live forever on Earth as God originally purposed.

 

Again, pretty much missing the whole point.

 

I am Mohawk and Inuit. I have found the white man's point many times. Unfortunately for the white man it never has sense to anyone but other white men.

So what is this point you say I miss ?

 

And I'm German, Welsh, Blackfoot and might touch of snapping turtle, so what is your point?


As for my point, it was an illustration about being given what is fake in place of what is real and how most people would find it upsetting.

It was also an illustration showing why so many are upset by religion, because when they find out what they thought was true is false, they are upset and tend not to just turn against the "religion" that lied to them but all religion, even if there may be one that is true.

Hope that wasn't too "white man" for you.

 

Christians are white man and much thing of white man have Windigo in them. So what is this that your religion is true and all other people religion false?

If there is such a thing as the christien god. Then it must be very emmense and powerful. If any man thinks he can describe or know what that is called "god" he is either arrogant or crazy. I think it is both.

Everything is spirit to my peoples. It is in the air, trees, dirt, animals, etc. It is all created from source and is of source. What this is can not be knowed by our minds. We is only to can feel the spirit and be good to all things.

 

Yes, false "Christianity" does use the pagan concept of "Hellfire" to try to coerce people

They also skinned people alive, boiled them, beat them, burned them to death with fire, butt fucked the little boys... nice people those christians.

 

Yes OWB,

I missed the point of your illustration.

So, the other christians here, do you, like OWB believe Jesus needed to be murdered?

 

That is kind of the point, those do such things are not Christians.

 

Yep.

Once again you don't bother to even try to understand what has been said to you. :toetap05:

 

You said to me in another thread that you believe he needed to be murdered:

How else am I to understand it? Did the people Sun Lion is talking about need to be murdered too?

 

I guess my question then is why are you in a Christian forum that is talking about whether there is a need for Jesus' sacrifice to forgive sins? I mean you're welcome to hang out if you want but I'm not sure why you want to.

 

Like I said do you even try to understand what is said to you or are just trying to score points?

Tell me why you keep insisting that I believe that Jesus needed to be murdered and ignore all the rest that was said? Are you only interested in distorting what has been said by taking it out of the context, so you can try to make others look bad?

 

You said it OWB, not me. I am not insisting you believe it, you are. Again, how else is it to be understood?