Why did God need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive sin?

OWB,

The Bible, but of course. I said that God was displeased with humanity enough to exterminate them. I said that that flies in the face of the idea that God knows all.

You came up with a non-biblical explanation that God can choose or choose not to foresee. One of us is making up things as we go along.

 

We all are constantly in a state of becoming. There are no idle thoughts.

 

OWB quote: "But although the dead don't personally experience the consequence, I believe the fact that they cannot personally experience the consequence, is in itself a consequence."

A consequence to whom?

 

This whole statement is contradictory.

If "God and his children can create only good" and "We were created to imagine things that are not yet so, that they may become so" and "they can imagine otherwise" thus making what is not good so but you say they "can create only good".

So what is it, can they only create good or can they also create bad?
If they can't create bad where does it come from?

 

You added to my statement, "thus making what is not good", which has made it appear contradictory to you.

What is only imagined is not real. The ray of creation proceeds thought, word, and deed.

 

OWB,

Debating and discussing things doesn't magically make assumptions about those things true. So, the fact remains that your claim that God chooses or chooses not to foresee is still an assumption on your part, designed to tie up untenable loose ends.

 

OWB:

As "simple truth". Is thedope a liar even though he is a teller of the truth?
You believe 'God' poses an objective absolute. What if thedope didn't know he was telling a lie? Is he still a liar? And if so, what does that then mean to you? What does it mean to 'God'?

OWB to thedope: "Since you are a liar, how could anyone falsely call you one?"

No but your avowal of it does. It is not my idea of justice, but yours. That a loss, that of innocence, can be made up for by the loss of life. Again, how have you answered it?

Where?

 

In reference to what?

That's maybe what you said but that is not what the Bible says.

God is all mighty, does that mean he has to use all his power in every thing he does? Similarly, if God has the power to know all things does that mean has to know every thing if he does not want to and it does not serve his purposes?

I said that it was not directly referred to in the Bible but that does not mean non-biblical, it only means that God did not think it necessary to completely explain the mechanism behind free will and omniscience in the Bible and so far as I know nothing I've said is contradicted in the Bible, so I would not call it non-biblical.

I've said the same things all along and if you choose you can look at all my posts since I've been at hip forums and I've said pretty much the same thing all along, so if one of us is just making it up as we go along, that leaves you.

 

Okay, but you did say otherwise. What did mean by otherwise then? And once again, where did what is bad come from?

 

OWB:

The imagining that ones creation is bad. Poor thedope, he must be sick of spelling it out for you!

 

Scientists do it all the time and guess what, sometimes those assumption turn out to be right. So just because something is an assumption, that does not automatically make it wrong. I have never said that my assumptions are correct just that they reasonably explain what many see as a contradiction. And yes it does tie up loose ends, so what? Just because it does, it very well could be a correct assumption.

 

Doesn't sound like you understand it any better than he does.

 

Bad is a nightmare of imagination. In imagining otherwise I mean we can imagine things that are not so.

 

OWB:

I don't.

 

No, the only one's patience is tried is waterbrother. We mustn't suggest he is a liar. Infinite patience brings immediate results.

 

So do you believe all other gods that are worshipped in other cultures aren't real, and the Christian god is?

 

OWB,

You said that there is no direct statement to be found in the Bible concerning your claim that God sometimes chooses to not foresee. Then can you direct me to the indirect statement, or statements, that caused you to assume this as fact?

You said that you do not agree that the dead do not experience consequences for dying as a non-believer. That means that you believe that they do experience a consequence for dying as a non-believer.

OWB quote: "Of course I'm measuring (the consequences of dying as a non-believer) according to what the living think about it, because the dead are dead and they have no opinion about anything, they don't think, feel or regret anything, they are dead." How do you reconcile this statement with what you have said above?

When I said that one of us is making things up as we go along, I was referring to the fact that you have so far failed to direct me to the source for your idea that God chose not to foresee the fall of human-kind.

 

I guess that would depend on what you mean by real. If you mean that I don't believe that the gods of other religions aren't Almighty God the creator of the universe, then no, I don't believe they are.

 

If one is to believe that the entire Bible is the word of God and is not contradictory, as I do, then there must be a reasonable explanation for all that seems contradictory in the Bible, that is not in of itself contradictory to the Bible.

This reasoning seems to fit that bill but if someone can come up with better reasoning on the matter that "fits the bill" then I would be willing to consider it but as I've said this is the only one so far that seems to fit the bill to me.

If you still want, I can explain further and show which texts are reconciled by this reasoning.

Once again, I said the dead do not experience anything and so they do not "experience" a consequence but just because a person may not "experience" a consequence does not mean that there is not a consequence.

Once again, just because a person may not "experience" a consequence does not mean that there is not a consequence.

I have directed you several times to the source, you just don't want to accept it but your non-acceptance does not mean I haven't directed you to my source.

 

OWB quote: "Sorry, no can do. The idea is a result of years of my debating . . ."

That was your response to my request that you point me to the source of your idea that God chooses, or chooses not, to foresee events. I then pointed out to you that debating and discussing things doesn't magically make your assumptions about those things true.

Your idea is that it must be true because that's the only explanation that makes the scenario believable. You are not seeing clearly, for there is another explanation. And that is that the story of a God who didn't foresee that he would have to destroy his own creation is false to begin with. You are attempting to build something straight from a foundation that is not level by bringing your own non-biblical ideas to shore it up.

So, I am now going to ask you to call to mind what those years of discussing and debating produced in the way of making clear to you that sometimes God chooses not to foresee events. If you cannot recall it, I will accept that, and we can close this discussion.

OWB quote: "Once again, I said the dead do not experience anything and so they do not "experience" a consequence but just because a person may not "experience" a consequence does not mean that there is not a consequence."

Therefore, the dead non-believer suffered no consequence. This is what I am saying.