why i am agnostic...

You could say that about a lot of things. A thief begins his life of crime by first opening himself up to the idea. You commit adultery by first opening yourself to the idea. A child believes in the boogy man by opening himself to the idea. Etc, etc... You can open yourself to the idea of all kinds of absurd things if you like, or you can approach the subject rationally.

I have had this experience. It was from an inner ear infection. I didn't mind it so much, it was kind of entertaining.

 

You make a good point, but absurd is subjective.

There is also factoring in what it really is. Examples and such really can't replace what it truly is. It can be analogous in nature, but so is comparing salmon roe to caviar. They look the same in many ways, and may even taste the same, but same it isn't.

It also depends on what you are opening yourself to, and the inevitable consequences that could lead from it. The consequences of this is much different than opening your mind to boogy-men, or a life of crime.


If you change your beliefs and follow those beliefs, then you become those beliefs. If you believe in the hilosophy of a thief, you will become a thief. If you live the philosophy of a Doctor, chances are you'll become a Doctor - The same goes for murderers - You esentially become what you believe in. Am I saying your BECOME God by enacting the ideas that follows along with it? Not exactly sure, but you do enter into a more peaceful and expanding experience.

If you hold the ideas of what you see God is: The perfect form of goodness and the idealized man, then you can actually become that and live a completely different life and life is the existence that you are a part of. If you live being cynical, your life will suffer from it. If you live holding that God consciousness and keep it with you no matter what situation, you will radiate a different presence and your life will be reshapen.

I don't know how else to explain that. You become your thoughts.

 

I'm just pointing out that the advice that all you have to do is open your mind to the idea of god isn't really compelling when that advice could be given about a lot of things that are not necessarily a good idea. So what I am trying to get at is, all things being equal, WHY is opening my mind to the idea of god a good idea, as opposed to opening my mind to the idea of the boogyman, or socialism?

The problem in general with putting your mind in auto pilot and just opening your mind to some particular idea is that you leave yourself open to a con-job, or deciding to do something that hasn't been adequately thought through. And I think caution for ideas in general extends to opening yourself to religion too.

I think people are predisposed to certain kinds of thinking from a combination of genetics, upbringing, and environment. A person needs a reason which resonates within them to be motivated enough to strive to put all that aside.

 

I definately agree. Actually i was thinking about this yesterday. People get caught by crazy cults etc because they open their mind to the idea and become brainwashed, so to speak.
If you explore life itself by youself, not by the texts you read or the what the people say then you are safe, well you at least know your thoughts are your own. This way your mind opens up little by little as you gain knowledge. This requires you not to believe in any particulars, but simply to open your mind to the possibilities.

 

I am just having a hard time explaining myself. You're both right. Opening yourself to certain ideas can turn you into an extremist.

That isn't what I mean by opening yourself to it. This is why I keep recommending books and movies because those mediums can articulate a lot better than what I can.

You need to balance logic and intuition together; It's a constant juggling act, and only focusing on either or could risk you into turning into a type of extremist.

No doubt genetics, environmental factors, et al., have a great impact on who we are, but I think we all have the ability to reshape the way we think about our world - To strive for optimization and to remain true to yourself, and keeping this balance with you. Everyone would have their own way of displaying goodness, just as long as you watch out for extremes (balance logic and intuition - yin/yang). There is no perfect path to this, and it can really meld with the person, but the choice for your own personal goodness is still there.

You absolutely need a reason for it, and Frankl discusses this in his books, which is why I recommend it so often. I find myself struggling to explain something that requires a lot of context to be understood.

You need a will to it. Some have a will to pleasure, will to power, or a will to meaning. Will to meaning is the healthiest path because once you start looking outwardly and treating everyone you meet with respect and dignity, the more you learn about yourself (self-knowledge). In other words, if you focus on others, you will actually have a greater understanding of your own identity (self-actualization).

I don't think it's all to necessary to acknowledge God's presence, because maybe doing so is a form of idoltry. You just live within what God really is by giving of yourself, and you'll know of this through these actions. You can still deny that this is a very real thing, but you'll 'know', as not to say know as a fact, but you will KNOW of way of experience. In other words, living this lifestyle would be what God is, and you KNOW of the experience. No need to call God this or that, you would just be in a certain state of being that could only be reached through self-knowledge and opening yourself to possibilities. Many atheists would actually know of God in this sense... just look at humanism and you can see what I mean - I don't mean knowing as in knowing as a fact, but knowing through experience, and this knowing doesn't require "OH, THERE IS GOD!" You just exist in this state of being, and that state of being encompasses God.

I think it is a fruitless practice to try to find hidden motives as to why people do what they do. You can look to see evidence, and facts, but that doesn't guarantee that you have figured that person out.

I don't want to risk sounding like a pompous asshole, or anything like that, so I think I'll end this here. I just recommend giving those books a read.

 

Def,
You implied that machines could perceive better than humans. Therefore if God is real then machines should be able to prove it.

 

Not to speak for def, but just because machines are able to perceive better than humans does not mean that machines are able to perceive everything.

 

Carl Sagan said that science is "a marriage of skepticism and wonder", consisting of a balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes: complete openess to new ideas, no matter how wacky they might seem, and exposure of them to ruthlessly skeptical scrutiny. I think that's a good way to approach reality.

 

Agreed.

 

No, of course machines don't perceive anything themselves. They are tools that allow us to view a wider spectrum of reality than we are capable of with our own senses. My point was that if God was more than an illusion within our minds then machines should be able to detect this presence but when we scan the full spectrum of energy frequencies with our machines we find absolutely no sign of God.

 

But we do not have machines capable of scanning all spectrums of energy.

btw... warmonger babes are hot

 

Either your point is irrelevant or you are suggesting that your brain is capable of receiving signals from a supernatural consciousness above the gamma radiation spectrum (100+ terrahertz).

It is far more likely that people get their God illusions from within their subconscious minds and imaginations than actually perceiving or tuning into the God channel at 666.5 Terrahertz and getting a message to martyr yourself in a fireball of destruction or whatever sort of egomaniacle bullshit that seem to spew from this channel.

 

Your faith in our current technology is astounding. Do you really think nothing we can't currently measure could possibly exist?

 

It has nothing to do with faith. It's about using common sense, logic and reasoning to determine the best answer. I do not rely on faith for anything, faith is for ignorant fools! My understanding of my universe is based on various levels of most probable likelihoods and after considering all of the facts, God being anything other that what I've previously stated is extremely unlikely.

 

Do we have machines detecting souls of dead people or you don't believe in life after death either? (God is dead in material world so to say). The idea of God is completely wrong among us. You don't believe in God that was created by mankind but there's something different not above us but around us & within us. It is not He or She, It is just Something. Don't you feel that Something influences your lives? Well, I do. We're not able to understand it. Like small insects can't understand what we are. Religions were made by people & people have always been mistaken, ignorant & prejudiced. Religions don't lead us to the truth, they are more to confuse us.

 

Even on the most basic level, 'God' as a concept does exist, the word carries meaning, whether or not the meaning behind that is a man that lives in the sky and created everything is completely irrelivent.

It is counter productive for you to be trying to disprove God. Your perception of what God is may or may not be true, but it is truly irrelivent because God is a concept. A concept is an illusion. You are still dreaming.

 

But you have faith in "common sense, logic and reasoning".

 

If concept is an illusion, then we might as well throw away all knowledge.

That's pretty much what 'just a concept' would mean. Everything and everything is 'just a concept', so nothing is true... even the word true would be meaningless.

All scientific discoveries would be worthless. Common sense, logic, and reasoning are just concepts. Well, those will be tossed out as well. We base all truths on concepts created by people thousands of years ago. Our views of what truth is stems from their ideas. Is this good or bad... who can decide? Should it be decided?

Concepts help us to reveal truths, and truth can be arrived at in multiple ways; it doesn't have to be so rigid.


Everything is ultimately a leap of faith, so what? No one ever goes into why having faith is so wrong - Never realizing the potential of faith as being a good thing.

We weren't sure that we would make it to the moon, but we had faith that we would. There was no guarantee or 'proof' that it could one day be done. Scientists have FAITH that diseases will be cured, and starvation could one day end, but we don't have solid evidence that it could happen.

Doctors tell their dying patients how, why, and when they will die, only to be stood up by the patients miraculous survival. Many great doctors look to these stories as inspiring because it shows that impossibilities are impossible; It shows to them that there is a lot that we don't yet understand, so faith is derived from their lack of knowledge, that they will someday know more about reality; where yesterdays impossible turns into todays possible.

Without faith, psychologists wouldn't have discovered the brains nature of plasticity, because all said it was impossible.

Having faith is actually very important to humanities survival.

 

Okie,
NO, I simply hold common sense, logic and reasoning in higher regard than nonsense, ignorance and fairytales.

Def,
I can't believe you even tried to comment on Kaminoshiki ironically irrelevant post! I can't even be bothered, personally.
Careful not to confuse hope and promise with faith.