relaxxx i read your first post and i have came to that same conclusion, my version was simpler but you described the way i looked at it exactly and perfectly. i wish i had found hipforums years ago it would have saved me some time with all that introspection. If you break it all down (rationally) for you believers out there there is only one thing that you can say exists and that is consciousness. But you can break it down even further and see that consciousness which we know to exist may only APPEAR to exist, Maya. Consciousness the ability to perceive is the ultimate reality. That can be known.