Why I think young teens shouldn't trip

Where do you get this shit. What you just said is 99% bullshit, with little basis in reality.
In reality many ancient cultures, Native American among them, rites of passage often involved various forms of torture, tattooing and scarification;

"It should be noted that in historical warrior traditions, many of the most powerful rites are entirely self-administered. Sioux braves willingly pierced their pectoral muscles and attached themselves by cords to a tall pole, dancing around it until the cords ripped loose out of their torn flesh. The Chinese monks of Shaolin entered the Corridor of Death of their own free will, knowing that even if they survived its deadly gauntlet of booby-traps, they could not escape without lifting a 300-pound, red-hot cauldron away from the exit, using only their bare arms (which would be permanently branded in the process with the images of a dragon and a tiger)."

You have an westernized, romanticized notion of these rites, Desos.
Sure some would incorporate the use of psychoactive plants and concoctions, but that was far from the norm.
Some tribes around the world still practice these type of rites of passage into adulthood, and death is ever present and at times the result.

 

then think of it as less of a rite of passage and more of a coming of age thing. when the time was deemed right the experience would be initiated.

i don't know why i must always explain myself, but here is a little snipet party explaining what i meant:

Because Native Americans believed that supernatural powers were personal beings, they sought to establish relationships with benevolent guardian spirits. Such relationships existed across the North American continent, although they were not prominent in the Southwest. Most of the hunting and gathering peoples of North America hoped to enter intimate relationships with spirits and to win these spirits as their protectors. They also hoped to avoid spirits thought to be dangerous, harmful, or evil. Sometimes, as in the native cultures of the Pacific Northwest, guardians were handed down within families from one generation to the next. More often, as in the cultures of the Eastern woodlands, youths sought the guardians' pity and protection by means of lengthy fasts. Guardian spirits became like family members to individual Native Americans, assuring them health, long life, success in economic pursuits, and help in times of crisis. The Native Americans, in turn, were responsible to their guardians, providing them with tobacco and other offerings, singing their praises, and upholding their honor. Thus, whereas supreme beings seemed distant to daily concerns, guardian spirits took an immediate interest in an individual's welfare.

they did it through fasts, as well as psychedelic journeys.

 

PB is correct, you have a very romanticized view of this.
Native American culture was very mystical - they didn't NEED psychedelics for the type of thing you just described. If you are using the illusive "native americans gave their children psychedelics as a rite of passage" argument to support the claim that it's ok for young teens to trip, you have two basic flaws.
1) In a lot of cases, it simply isn't true
2) You are using the practices of an archaic culture to justify something in a modern setting, and in a society that is very different. Going through a rite of practice, psychedelic or otherwise, is something the people in these cultures would be preparing for since birth. Handing a 14 year old some acid and saying "Have fun" is not the modern day equivalent.

Either way, trying to justify something based on the principle of some ancient people who thought the world rested on a turtles back, called guns "thunder sticks", and thought glass was a magical force field is just stupid, and I'm part Cherokee BTW.

 

all i was trying to say is that sometimes you have a window of opportunity into the spiritual realms when you are younger before your ego becomes too hardened. this is obviously what the native americans understood. mystical experiences at the right times at the right age can solidify the connection.

 

That's a lie man, and it's just another half-baked belief stemming from the related belief that children are somehow more closer to spirituality.
Becoming an adult doesn't "harden your ego" unless you are the type of person who has his ego hardened. It has nothing to do with age, just the type of person you are.
You want to see ego, go babysit some kids who are in their terrible twos.
NOBODY has the sense of entitlement that a toddler has. Hell, all babies know is ME ME ME, they can't even divide between themselves and other people. And not in the "I'm so enlightened everyone is One" way.

 

So true.
And I'm part Choctaw

 

Oh damn I'm about hmm, 1/64th Native so all sit close and listen. Ayahuasca. Purging. Earth Mother! Yeah. What's up?

 

.....Bullshit.

I've noticed that while I've been fascinated with psychedelics for around 5-6 years now, they really didn't used to to as much for me, I could hardly even handle craving pot, I had a weak little kid mind, I get more from psychedelics now, and while coming of age is quite psychedelic, it doesn't require chemicals not present naturally in your body...

Little kids shouldn't trip, I've seen the outcomes. It very often makes for young adults with no self control, no respect, no thought or caring... A lot of them mentally throw a rod. It's not that they believe everything they see or think, it's that it hardens them to emotion, I think... Of course, I know some who are fine, but not usually, with kids who do much in the way of drugs. I mean, I was doing all the psychedelics I could as soon as I could get ahold of them and understood them, but maybe I'm fucked up myself. Well, I'm probably rather fucked up, that is.

 

just my humble opinion but 75% of kids are going to fuck up their brains, at least slightly, on drugs, before tehy even turn 18.. and of those 75%.. maybe like 2% are going to end up brain dead or junkies.. So its pretty good odds..and this has been going on awhile..

 

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It's the same damn thing.
Rite of passage is the passing from childhood into adulthood.

This is not the same as a coming of age ritual or rite of passage (into adulthood) and your "snippet" didn't say anything whatsoever about the use of psychedelics. It is more what is colloquially known as a "spirit quest", at least that is how I would interpret it. That is something that can occur at any time in life.

Also only the Native tribes of Mexico and the southern U.S. used peyote. Other tribes along the north east and mid-west used mostly wild tobacco as a drug or plant "sacrament".
It was only later, in the 1800's, that the use of peyote spread to other tribes, often as a result of the expansion of the "white man" caused crisis and tribes were on the move, being driven out of thier original lands and original "sacramental" plants.

You really need to stop reading your own thoughts and ideas into things and read the actual words that are on the page and interpret them at face value according to the accepted definition of the words used, and also maintain the contextual meaning. THAT is why you are always having to explain yourself.

 

Wow so many People have their phD in psychology on this forum

 

If you don't like discussion of a given topic, you would do well to avoid message boards dedicated to the discussion of those topics.

 

Who said I wasn't enjoying this discussion Miyagi?

 

I'm not going to try to explain what I'm saying, I'm tired and you allready know. So this will have to suffice:

Fuck yourself:coffee:

 

So you're saying you are the reason young teens shouldn't trip?

 

lol

 

Shrug, I kinda get what Desos is on about. I don't know how many tribes did or didn't use psychedelics. Some did, some didn't. It's fairly obvious that there were folks who used them all over the planet. Peyote, Psilocybe, Ayahuasca, Iboga, Amanita, Verbena, Datura, and many, many others. Some folks restricted use to only the shamans. Many folks gave it as a coming of age thing. And that coming of age was at the age of majority, which was generally in the teens. Some folks administered, and still do, such drugs throughout a lifetime. Ayahuasca users generally start using when they're in the womb and don't stop their whole life long. And according to -very- extensive studies recently, they apparently average out to be somewhat more well-adjusted then the average(and far less likely to use other drugs, interestingly).

Sure many kids who do a lot of drugs are going to end up kinda fucked up. How much of all that self-centeredness that you see comes from psychedelics though? Kids who do a lot of drugs are pretty likely to do an assortment. Also, there is a bit of a selection bias going on. It's the kids who are off the general 'track' of life to begin with that are by far most likely to get into drugs at an early age. The kids with the most problems, the most messed up home lives, etc. So, in other words, the ones most likely to be a bit on the messed up side to begin with.

There is absolutely -zero- evidence that doing psychedelics at a young age is going to fuck you up. None. There is also no real evidence that it -won't-. Interestingly, this is the same reasoning used to keep many drugs illegal. That they aren't proven safe. But really, there is some pretty strong evidence to suggest that psychedelics are a better choice if kids -are- going to go and get high then almost any other option available. Better then alcohol, better then pot, and way better then most other street drugs.

Course, it's a moot point. Regardless of what we feel and say on here, teens are going to continue to hunt out ways to get high. And using whatever methods at their disposal. Even if we were to decide, as a nation, that one particular substance was pretty safe and made it legal and available even for teens, we'd still have kids hunting out everything else under the sun just because they could, and were told not to. It's just something some kids do.

 

I don't know what it may be an example of, but I had just turned 15 the first time I tripped. I think it is particularly useful for the very young to have experienced guidance regarding the uses of psychedelics. For one thing it is useful to be instructed that you are going to be exposed to a temporary state of altered consciousness. It is helpful also to provide safe and uninterrupted space. For instance, you don't necessarily want to be answering the door to the police who have come because the neighbors complained about how loud your music was.

 

I'm telling you that I wish I'd just smoked pot and waited a few years past what I did, that's quite right.

Little kids just should not be doing much messing with the chemicals in their brains. It's not because one trip messes you up, it's because kids who trip as a habit are, more often than not, useless adults with no grounding in reality.

 

What happened?