Why Isn't Homosexuality Considered A Disorder On The Basis Of Its Medical Consequence

Wow.

I honestly never would have thought some readers would need to be reminded that 'Heterosexual intercourse' means Penis-Vagina intercourse.

I assumed and you know what happens when you assume.. I make an ASS our of U and ME.
(No Pun intended hah)

For the record - When I say 'Heterosexual intercourse' I am indeed refering to 'Penis Vagina' intercourse.
(Since anal sex would not be exclusive to heterosexual couples anyways)
When I say 'Homosexual intercourse' Im indeed refereing to Penis-Anus' intercourse.
(Since Men dont have Vagina's)

From now on I will try and be more specific for you Skeeter (even though Im pretty sure you were the only one who was confused about that)

 

P.S.: And then there is THIS statement made by you, Quetzacoatl:

". . . have seen the 'Oral Only' defense being used too.
Now it is probably true that many homosexuals practice 'oral only' - but dont think this is a great 'out' for the 'disorder' argument.

"The male erection and the male mouth do not seem to be made for one another. Oral Sex (an unfortunate mis-use of the word Oral btw) can be inherintely dangerous for one simple reason - the human mouth contains an astonishing amount of bacteria and germs."

So what does that say to heterosexuals and lesbians who engage in oral sex? You rather conveniently failed to mention the fact that oral sex is THE most popular form of sexual activity, regardless of people's sexual orientation. And do you really expect me to believe that YOU don't engage in oral sex yourself?

Why did you single out "the male erection and the male mouth" as not being made for one another and not mention "the male erection and the female mouth" in the same context?

Why do you repeatedly single out male-to-male sex as beiing negative, but not male-to-female sex -- or for that matter, female-to-female sex?

You can call into question the health effects gay sex all you want, but as long as you keep zeroing in on male-to male-sex, while continuining to either downplay or deny health risks associated with similar sex practices between men and women (and ignore lesbian sex altogether), you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that your comments are not motivated by a personal discomfort with male-to-male sex.

And by the way, just for the record, I'm bisexual, so don't even try to "turn the tables" and accuse me of having a personal discomfort with male-to-female sex.

 

Skeeter-If "male penis" and "male mouth" are used in the context of a discussion of potential homosexual disorders then it is not prejudiced, as gay women are obviously blow-job free.

The use of "oral sex is dangerous"..."human mouth is full of bacteria" also generalises the previous statement to include everyone. If you look carefully at what you are quoting at Quetzacoatl you will see that it really contains nothing offensive. Don't be so quick to your guns.

Photogra-thank you for the information you provided from various psycological associations about their opinions on the subject. However, in my opinion, all psycologists are to be treated with deep suspicion, because of the "treatment" administered by them in mental institutions. What do they know?
Stay away from them at all costs unless you are dangerous to yourself or others.

I posted the original post in hope of getting a more personal response from anyone who might recognise (or not)anything I said in themselves. I want to know what YOU think. I don't care about the APA or any of them.

 

Personal Pet Peeve of mine -
'Oral'

Oral referes to speaking and hearing.

'Phonesex' would be 'Oral Sex'.

Somewhere along the line we lost our grip on the english language.

Personally that offends me far more than anything in this whole Homosexuality debate.

 

I would agree that mental health services are still evolving, but I feel I should point out that the overwhelming majority of services performed in mental institutions are by psychiatrist, who are much more interested in treating the biology of mental disorder, rather than the psychology of it (at least that is my understanding, psychiatrist = MD, psychologist = PhD)

 

I hope nobody thinks I am 'For' the traditional idea that there is a 'mental illness' called 'Homosexuality'.

Personally.. i do not give too much value to Psychiatry (or psychology).
Yes.. there are many things on which i strongly agree with them .. even admire, but these guys are running something far far more 'luck and flaw' than most people would like to believe.

Shit.. just 4 years ago they had everyone convinced that social anxiety and depression were simple 'Chemical imbalances' and could be fixed by adding more Paxil to the brain.

Now they are all giving up on that and basically admitting that Paxil, Prozac etc are .. well ya.. they are just drugs that make you feel 'good' or 'numbed'.

The whole 'chemical imbalance' things was just sorta a ..ummm.. well it made us feel good about taking drugs.

Heck. they dont even know why electro-shock works.. they just kinda know it makes people numb and stunned for a while.

Anyway.. they do good work for sure.. but i dont take anything they say as if it were 'Science Fact'.
Not at all.

 

Skeeter-If "male penis" and "male mouth" are used in the context of a discussion of potential homosexual disorders then it is not prejudiced, as gay women are obviously blow-job free.

The use of "oral sex is dangerous"..."human mouth is full of bacteria" also generalises the previous statement to include everyone. If you look carefully at what you are quoting at Quetzacoatl you will see that it really contains nothing offensive. Don't be so quick to your guns.

With all due respect, Astralgoldfish, I have dealt with commentaries made by Quetzacoatl and many others regarding the negative effects of homosexual practices for far longer than you've been alive. I have witnessed and grieved for the loss of dozens of gay men who were close friends of mine in the 20-plus years since AIDS reared its deadly swath.
I am more than fully aware of the necessity of taking measures to protect myself and my companions from the sexual transmission of disease; I have been living with genital herpes for almost 25 years.


Having said all this, I am fed up with those who spread the notion that homosexual pracitices "lead to disorder." For underlying that notion is a firm belief by those who promulgate it that homosexuality itself is a "disorder." I categorically reject that latter notion as a lie. It is a lie that is firmly rooted in a prejudice against homosexuality -- particularly male homosexuality, as you rarely, if ever, read similar commentaries about lesbian sexuality.

I submit from three decades of personal observation that the deliberate use of data -- whether, scientific, legal or religious -- to "illustrate" the notion that homosexual practices "lead to disorder" is motivated primarily by bias against homosexuality and are all-too-often used to justify such bias, particularly when those who make such pronouncements either fail or refuse to acknowledge that certain sexual practices negatively affect homosexuals and heterosexuals equally.

This whole notion of homosexuality being a "disorder" is an insult to me as a person who has engaged in -- and enjoyed -- erotic intimacy with other men (including a French-Canadian man with whom I have been deeply in love for nearly 20 years), as well as erotic intimacy with women.

It is as every bit as insulting to me as the equally biased notion that intimate relationships between people of different racial and/or ethnicities is harmful (A notion to which I take extreme umbrage, as my parents were an intrerracial couple, as are my Quebecois partner and I).

So if it appears that I have "a chip on my shoulder," you now know why. I made a decision when I turned 50 that I will not hesitate to challenge these notions whenever and wherever they arise. Such notions that are based on prejudice MUST be challenged, lest we repeat the mistake of not challenging even more odious prejudices that are a cancer on humanity's soul.

-- Skeeter

 

For starters - Let homosexual intercourse stand or fall on its own.

If you have to point to lesbians and deflect a "what about them huh" diversion then your position is already in trouble.

The RN was trying to establish how and why we call call something 'disorderly' and another 'Order'.
I thought the RN made some weak arguments
but
There is a good argument made for 'disorder' when we see a certain action that, as its logical conclusion, will lead to disorder. (tears, fissures, lack of bowel control, infections, etc)

Dont get 'Mad'
Dont bother worrying about whether 'Ask Sue Johansen' or 'Dr.Smith' or Quetzalcoatl are 'Homophobes'.
Whether they are or are not wont change the facts of life or what 'is'.

Hey.. I loved my Coach for 10 years and good on you for loving this guy for 20 years. That is a good thing in this world but unfortunately for your counter-argument, it simply does NOT mitigate anal sex leading to disorder (or not).

Fact: Lesbians are not endowed with a penis (or a prostrate for that matter) so they do not have anything to do with this particular point in the discussion.

How you figure what somebody else is 'not' doing has anything to do with this is beyond all reason.

"I have witnessed and grieved for the loss of dozens of gay men who were close friends of mine in the 20-plus years since AIDS reared its deadly swath."

Yes, and so have their parents, sisters and brothers and in-laws.
Its sad.

However,, that does not for or against the order vs disorder argument.

What are you supposing to say - that something 'bad' happened to people who were homosexuals so 'therefore' we should not say anything about 'badness' to them??

 

For the purposes of any discussion about this subject Quez, I'd use "anal" not "homosexual~" intercourse, lots of straight people do this. Plus, don't exclude lesbians from anal sex, they lack penises not imaginations. They have as much to do with this discussion as anyone.

 

I'm posting the following news item without comment, leaving it up to you to ponder my earlier post tying "French Affair" to the anti-gay Chrsitian Right.

--Skeeter

* * *

'Ex-gay' therapist cited for ethics breaches

By Tom Musbach,
PlanetOut News

Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 / 06:19 PM

Richard Cohen, an influential figure in the "ex-gay" movement, has been permanently expelled from the American Counseling Association (ACA) because of ethics violations, according to an ACA document.

Cohen, billed as an "expert in sexual reorientation therapy," is the board president of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays (PFOX) and author of "Coming Out Straight: Understanding and Healing Homosexuality." He claims that he was not gay; he had "same-sex attraction disorder" and has since been healed.

The ACA announcement was obtained by Wayne Besen, author of "Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth," and posted on his Web site on Tuesday.

The ACA said Cohen was expelled for violations of six ethical codes and that he "has not elected to appeal the decision taken by the ACA Ethics Committee." Details about the violations were not specified, but they corresponded to ACA codes of conduct toward clients, such as avoiding dual relationships or fostering dependent counseling ties.

The case was closed on May 28, 2002, according to Larry Freeman, the ACA's manager of ethics and professional standards.

"It is no surprise that Richard Cohen violated the ACA ethics, because reparative therapy itself lacks integrity and attempts to meet their agenda's need, not the needs of clients," said Joe Kort, psychotherapist and author of "10 Smart Things Gay Men Can Do to Improve Their Lives."

"Of particular note is that Cohen's violations are self-serving, as he is accused of violating standard ethics of protecting his client from dual relationships, marketing purposes and testimonials," Kort added.

Considered a success story for the "ex-gay" movement, Cohen is an adviser to conservative radio host Dr. Laura Schlessinger, and he has advocated his therapeutic theories on "The O'Reilly Factor," "20/20" and other shows.

One man who considered himself "ex-gay" for 17 years said Cohen's book, "Coming Out Straight," ultimately discouraged him from keeping up the struggle to change his orientation. Rick from Fredonia, N.Y., (who asked that his last name be withheld), said Cohen relies on a common reparative therapy theory: A child who doesn't form a healthy bond with his or her same-sex parent develops an "unhealthy" sexuality.

"Cohen's approach is to utilize 'holding therapy' as a way of repairing the bond and help a person transition from homosexuality to their 'inherent' heterosexuality," Rick told PlanetOut News.

"I found this basic concept to be very damaging to me," he said. "I was always 'sick' or 'broken' or in some other way inadequate as a human being. Because therapy always focused on my father and his supposed absence and bad parenting, my relationship with him suffered."

Rick added, "I decided to stop being 'ex-gay' after a long process in which I determined being gay was not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be repented of."

The American Psychiatric Association has repudiated "reparative therapy" for homosexuality. "There is no evidence that any treatment can change a homosexual person's deep-seated sexual feelings for others of the same sex," the group claims on its Web site.

Copyright 2005, PlanetOut News

 

Hey.. I loved my Coach for 10 years and good on you for loving this guy for 20 years. That is a good thing in this world but unfortunately for your counter-argument, it simply does NOT mitigate anal sex leading to disorder (or not).

I've got two words for you with regard to anal intercourse leading to "disorder" -- particularly anal intercourse performed with protective devices to prevent the spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.

PROVE IT!

-- Skeeter

 

I wasn't the LEAST BIT confused; YOU were comparing apples to oranges. I was comparing apples to apples. You cannot compare penile-anal intercourse to penile-vaginal intercourse in this case, for penile-vaginal intercourse is anatomically EXCLUSIVE to male-female partners. The only comparison that can be valid in this case is penile-anal intercourse between male partners on the one hand and penile-anal intercourse between male-female partners on the other. Any other comparison is bogus.

-- Skeeter

 

I think he was banned. You can quit wasting your efforts on someone who clearly doesn't understand sex now.

 

Doing stuff like that is awesome though.

Can't be arsed to go back and quote since you've probably buggered off already anyway, but you do seem to be reading a lot into the AMA taking into account the opinions of lots of professionals and experts. You say they were pressured into declaring homosexuality a disorder, I say they were just shown the evidence. You can't prove it and neither can I, but the least complicated explanation is usually the right one.

The idea of causal effect isn't exactly rocket science.

I apologise now for bumping this shit up again.

 

Well, here are three pics of me without a rope rockclimbing. The medical consequences should I fall are pretty dire. In the first one, I am a good 80 feet up. So, is this a disorder?
F1 car racing, dangerous, a disorder?
trapeze
skiing
heck, getting out of the tub can be dangerous.
It is no basis for labelling an activity a disorder.
What is so complicated for some people about that?

 

personaly i dont understand why 2 guys would wanna fuck, but what ever makes you happy.

 

it doesn't get me going either, but i say live and let live, peace.

 

WHOA! Sounds like you have a serious disorder!

 

the french ass are still sore from the german large penis inserted in WW 2 so now they pick on the gay guys wish prob were many of the american GI who went to liberate france.

 

Homesexuality was listed as a sexual deviation under the broad rubic of "personality disorders and certain other nonpsychotic mental disorders" in the second edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
In April 1974, the American Psychiatric Association ruled that homosexuality would no longer be listed as a mental disorder... Thank gawd for that...