Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

Dear Dauer,

Sorry about the confusion, I think it was just a matter of coincidence. My post was merely the next one after yours.

I was addressing this entire thread, actually.

I think we may all agree on this simple fact - Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and so on, all too often misunderstand, mistrust and mistreat one another. Maybe it has always been that way, but it seems that the consequences of our misunderstanding have become far more destructive as of late. There seems to be an increasing lack of respect, a loveless, truthless, unwise narrowing of consciousness that suggests an illusion of disunity among the faithful of all traditions which is actually antithetical to all religions, to all relationships between humanity and the divine.

In a perfect world, no one would ever feel so alienated from their own faith that they would feel any need to abandon their faith in favor of another, no one would ever have to convert, but everyone would be free to embrace all faiths, if moved to do so. Toward that end, I meant only to clarify the vital relationship that actually does bind together Judaism and Christianity in a way that is healthy, realistic and absolutely respectful of both traditions.

I hope this helps.

Peace and Love

 

IF GOD IS ONLY ONE PERSON, WHY DID GOD SAY LET (US) MAKE MAN IN (OUR) IMAGE AND IN (OUR) LIKNESS. WHO WAS (US) AND (OUR)?

AND SOMEDAY WHEN GOD SAVES ISRAEL FROM AN INVADEING ARMY, WHY WILL THEY LOOK ON THE ONE THEY PERIECED? AND WHY WILL THE JEWS ASK HIM WHERE DID HE RECEIVE THOSE WOUNDS IN HIS HANDS? AND WHY WILL THE JEWS BE SO UPSET WHEN THEY FINALLY SEE WHO HE IS?

AND WHEN JESUS SAID THERE WILL BE SOME STANDING THERE THAT WILL NOT TASTE OF DEATH TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM, THAT STATEMENT WAS TRUE. FOR IF YOU READ A LITTLE FURTHER, SOME OF THEM DID SEE THIS IN A VISION ON THE MOUNT OF TRANSFIGURATION.

WHEN JESUS DIED, IT WAS HIS HUMAN BODY THAT PASSED ON, HIS SPIRIT NEVER DIED.

 

Dear Campbell,

What do you hope to accomplish with your argument?

Peace and Love

 

I'm here to speak the truth. That alone is enought for me.

 

The first indication of the Trinity is found in Genesis 1:26 the Old Testament.

Let US make man in OUR image in OUR likeness.

WHO DO YOU THINK GOD WAS TALKING WITH HERE?

 

Jesus fulfill the 300 prophecies of the Old Testament. Jesus is the light to the gentiles. 2 billion and growing. Or is there another Jew to come that will out shine Jesus? And what of Zec. 12 When God saves Israel from destruction in the endtimes. When the Jews look upon Him, why does God say they will look upon me the one whom they have peirced? And why are the Jews of that time so upset, when they see their God? All through Scripture the Jewish people have sinned against God, and now we are to believe you finally got it right.
Even the prophecies that tell of how God will return the Jews to Israel in the latter days, clearly tell us, that God is not doing this for the sake of Jews. God tells us, wherever His people wandered, they polluted His name. No, God tells us that when He allows the Jews to return to the land of Israel, He is doing this for His names sake. God is allowing the Jews to return to Israel to anger the nations that hate the Jews. God is going to use the Jews in Israel as bait. When the Islamic nations together try and drive the Jews out of their land, God will act. God is just repeating history. God used the Jews in Egypt to destroy Pharoahs Army. God is going to repeat this on a much larger scale. When the dust clears, Israel will remain intact, but the invading army will be destroyed, and then the Bible tells us that after this event, God will be known in the eyes of many nations, and that includes Israel.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I know Jesus Christ, He is not a religion to me. I have experienced His power, and we are friends. I cannot deny who He is because I know Him so well. He spoke to me years ago and told me when my wife was going to have a child even before my wife knew, He spoke to me one night and told me He loved me. Once I needed a job very badly, and He told me to go and pary about it. I did what He said, and just as I said the A of Amen the phone next to me began to ring, and the man on the other end asked if I could start work for him monday morning. Once I was on a beach and I ask Him if He would send someone to talk to me about Him. As soon as I finished my prayer, I was approached by two men who ask if I knew Jesus Christ. I'm telling you He is the living God, and He is powerful. I'm not here to get points, my salvation is sealed. I'm here because I love you, and I love the God who made us all.

 

Why couldn't he have been talking to the angels?

Saying something does not make it true.

There are other religions in the world that are also growing.

I wouldn't say that Jesus shined so much as the pagan myth that was created around him and then backed by the Holy Roman Empire.

I don't see the word pierced. Are you sure you're not reading a translation of a translation?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16216&showrashi=true

btw the messiah ben joseph referenced is not Jesus, but rather a Jewish figure, one of the two messiahs, who is supposed to be an actual military leader, a warrior.

That's right, unlike most of the rest of the world's scriptures, Judaism's scriptures don't hide when its people do wrong. I'd say that rather than a source of shame, that's something to see as an example. The people of the Tanach are humans we can relate to, with all their faults just like us. We don't need a mangod.

Funny, I see no mention of Islam in the Tanach.

Let me translate what you said into language more people can agree on: "I have had subjective experiences in my life. People in other religions have had comparative experiences but because these are the ones I have had, I know they must be universally true for everyone, and everyone else's experiences are wrong, even heresy."

Then recognize the difference between that which is consensual and that which is not. When you missionize after being told off it is equivalent to rape. Go away.

 

The reason God was not talking to the angles is because the Bible makes it clear that God ALONE was involved in Creation. God did not have any little helpers aiding in this.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord THAT MAKETH ALL THINGS; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF.

When God said Let US MAKE. He was not speaking with angles. And if He was, and the angels were really helping Him in Creation, then God would be a LIAR.
Yet we both know, God is not a liar.

Saying something does not make it true? Yet there are at least 300 Old Testament prophecies and the New Testament points to all of them, and claims that Jesus fulfilled them. And if Jesus did not fulfill them, who did?

In Isaiah 52:10 We read, "The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." In two thousands years, there has only been one man who has come out of the Jewish people, and has been recognized through out the world bring salvation, and that man is Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ returns He will be both the King and the military leader that the prophecies speak of.

I spoke of Islam, because most of the nations the Bible speaks of that will attack Israel in the last days, are Islamic nations today.

 

Firstly, in Judaism, angels have no free will. Therefore any action an angel makes is simply an extension of God's actions. They are not then, helpers, as it were. It's more like a high electrical tower that carries power down by means of wire relays and smaller towers. In Judaism, the idea that the angels were around and a part of creation would not disagree with Isaiah at all. That would be like saying that because your thought told your arm to lift, that you didn't really tell your arm to lift. Secondly, if you actually look at the whole passage instead of omitted a significant piece we find:

"26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

At first it is plural, but in the end it is singular. There is a midrash that fills in this gap in the text, saying that God consulted the angels about the creation of man, and pretty much they all had negative things to say. Truth says this. Justice says that. And while they're arguing God creates man. Thus it was plural when God first said it, and not plural when the action actually took place. This is more indicative of an assemblage like a court, and then the action of a single authority, not of a Trinitarian or Triune godhead.

Again, you're just making an unvalidated claim. Making the claim does not in and of itself support the claim. As I said, saying something does not make it true. And whatever the Greek Testament says I could really care less from you. You're not interested in respectful, ecumenical, interfaith dialogue, just pushing yourself upon those who've already told you off.

Firstly, why do you assume that everything you see as a prophecy is considered a prophecy by Judaism? Second, why must any given prophecy already be fulfilled? Does God have to go according to your schedule? I can think of much more important Jews than Jesus: Freud, Einstein, Spinoza, Luria, the Baal Shem Tov, Maimonides. Nothing Jesus said was particularly original that's worth repeating. Can the same be said for Einstein?

Where does it say that this will be accomplished through one individual? And what hard evidence do you have that anyone has actually achieved salvation through Jesus? You have none. It's based on faith. If you continue to read you see that this passage is all in reference to a servant, a servant who is repeatedly referenced in the book of Isaiah as the Jewish people.

Now you're just misappropriating someone else's prophecies because you think it serves your purposes without knowing anything about where they come from. The messiah (which literally means annointed one and merely refers to a leader who, as used to be done, was annointed with oil as part of coronation like moses or david or Cyrus) ben Joseph is a military leader who will die in battle before the coming of the messiah ben David. He will not be "the" messiah, as it were, that is he won't be the more important of the two, but rather a more minor character. But of course the Jewish concept of the messiah ben david is much different from the christian one anyway.

I see no mention of Muslim countries attacking Israel in the Tanach. Do you mean the modern state of Israel? Because I don't see any mention of the modern state of Israel in the Tanach either.

 

If angles do not have free will, how is it that Lucifer is fallen from heaven as spoken in Isaiah 14: 9-16?

If I seem over zealous please forgive me, it is because I have had an encounter with Jesus Christ. I really can relate to those in the Bible who were non believers only to stand in His presence seeing His reality, and then do a full 360 deg. God has actually spoke to me, and I am pretty much a nobody. God has done such wonders in my sight, forgive me. I don't even go to church, my job keeps me from doing that. Yet Jesus I know very well, He is not some distant historical figure to me.

What was orginal about Jesus was the fact that he told the world that none of us can earn eternal life by are own efforts. Not one of us will ever enter heaven because we deserve to be there. Without the sheeding of blood, there is no forgivness for sin. Christians believe, that Jesus is the blood sacrifice for the world.

In the Book of Ezekiel God states that in the latter years God would bring the Jewish people back to their own land Israel. Israel today is believe by many American Christians to be the fulfillment of that prophecy. The Bible also states that when they would return they would take southern Israel first. They did this in 1948. The Bible then tells us that second they would retake Jerusalem. They did in 1967. The Bible tells us that the ancient cities would be rebuilt and at the same time Israel would be surrounded by enemies. They are. The Bible tells us that Jerusalems East Gate would be sealed and no one would enter that Gate until the Prince to come would open it. The Gate is sealed. The Bible tells us that all attempts to open the gate would fail. They have.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, I never thought of the Jewish people as the mighty God.

 

Are you using a translation of a translation again? There is no such character as Lucifer in the Tanach. This passage refers to Nebuchadnezzar.

If I seem to strongly oppose your snakelike missionizing activity please forgive me. It is because my own subjective experiences have taught me that absolutism, especially the kind you exhibit which insists all who do not believe as you do are condemned, is extremely dangerous. I don't need to hear your stories about your subjective experiences if all you're interested is bending me over and giving it to me. Learn to get outside your own head once in a while and see the larger picture. There are more ways to view the world than through the lens you use and wish to force upon the rest of us.

Do you mistakenly think I experience God as far from me, or that I don't have intense Godly experiences? When your spirituality blinds you as yours has to the experiences of others, it's reduced to nothing more than a drug. If all you strive to be is an addict, fine, but please find another alley to push your favorite pills in. We're not buying.

So the one original thing you could come up with that Jesus taught is that, despite what the Tanach says, we're all sinners incapable of repairing the damage we've done and the only way to fix it is human sacrifice? Well imo that's not exactly the best message to be spreading. But if it's what works for you.

I'm aware of the beliefs of Conservative Christians. However spreading them here isn't really relevant. You can take that to the Christian forums across the hall. I'm sure they'd love it.

Translation of a translation again? ". For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace.""

And why do you assume this refers to the servant here? Could this not be speaking of Hezekiah ben Ahaz?

Judaism never puts forth the idea of a godman.

 

I believe the orginal question was speaking of Creation and God alone being involved. When I stated that God said "let US make man in OUR image." I tried to point out that God was speaking to others in the Godhead. You stated that he was speaking to angles, and you stated that angles donot have free will. I brought up the name Lucifer, and you stated that the name Lucifer does not appear in the Tanach. And I will agree, you are correct. Yet, the Tanach does speak of Satan, who was an angle, and he was an angle that opposed God. Which if that is the case, then angles do have free will.

Let me ask you this one question. What does a man in your faith have to do to receive eternal life?

The reason the above verse could not be refering to Hezekiah Ben Ahaz, is because he has not become the light to the gentiles. The nations of the world have not embraced him as God, or anything else. The gentile nations have embraced Jesus.

 

But you left out the other significant part of that text, which I added for you and demonstrated why thus it would make more sense to be referring to angels.

Satan never appears in the Tanach. HaSatan does, but he has no free will and never goes against God. He only does as God wills.

That is a very Christian question. The fact is that according to Judaism the righteous of ALL nations have a place in the world-to-come and God's justice is tempered by His mercy. Even if a person was not the nicest person in this life, there is still the possibility they could do more work in another gilgul, or their souls could be transformed in gehenna, which is a temporary place, before going to Gan Eden. Only the souls of the truly wicked are extinguished, because gehenna or a gilgul would not be able to help them, and sending them either of those routes would thus not be mercy, and it is not our place to determine who they are, but God's alone. However as I said it's a very Christian question because all in all Jews are far less concerned about the afterlife than Christians. It is a more this-worldly religion, even when it gets esoteric.

There's no place in the text saying this individual will be embraced as God (and why would a Jewish text ever suggest that?) by anyone, nor as anything else by the gentiles.

And Mohammed, and Buddha, and Krishna, and increasingly Baha'u'llah.

 

In the story of Job HaSatan without question is a free Spirit. God asked him where he has been and HaSatan tells God. "going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." I believe God asked that question for our benifit, because God knew where Satan was. I believe God wanted us to know that this angle pretty much did his own thing. And when God told Satan how good a servent Job was, Satan opposed God and told Him, he's only good because you bless him. You see, if HaSatan was an angel in subjection to God, he would of agreed with God, but HaSatan had his own ideas about reality, and they don't agree with Gods.
Then HaSatan tells God, take away his blessings he will curse you to your face. Then God told HaSatan all that he has is in YOUR POWER. And what does HaSatan do? He kills off Jobs sheep, he has his servants killed, he kills his sons and daughters, and then he afflicted Job with loathsome sores. Now God allowed this, but this was HaSatan's doing. HaSatan is false accuser of Godly people, and HaSatan is also a deciever, for He tried to decieve God into believeing that Job would curse Him. HaSatan is not an obedient severent to God, but is a false accuser and one who tries to deceive others. The text clearly points this out.

There is no place in the text that states this person will be embraced as God.
Yet Isaiah 9:5 states that his name will be called wonderful counselor, MIGHTY GOD, ETERNAL FATHER, prince of peace. And those are names that Christians associate with Jesus. Who would call someone the Mighty God unless they thought he was?

And yes, the gentile nations did embrace Christ, yet even Christ asked the question. When I return will there be any faith left on the earth. The New Testament also states that Christ would not return before there would be a great falling away from the faith, so when you point out how these other religions are growing, that would agree with the prophecies of the New Testament. In the New Testament it states that the time will come when men will not endure sound doctrine. And that is why we see the rise of all these other religions.

 

Absolutely not. Throughout the whole thing he answers to God. God even gives him permission to do what he does. The role of HaSatan is one of a prosecutor, something like a sting agent, an undercover man. He has the job of testing. It's not a popular job, but he does it. That's what he was created for. And if there ceased to be a Divine need for this, HaSatan would cease to be, because angels exist only to fulfill the purpose for which they have been created (and absolutely some of those purposes could be quite complex, some quite basic.) God is the Source of all. he has no opposite.

Two things, first, as Judaism understands it, the Torah speaks in the language of man. So HaSatan conversing with God, we don't know what actually happened. That's in terms that we can relate to. Second, there's a difference between having free will and being able to come up with ideas of one's own. If God willed it, an angel could do that. But an angel could not then act of its own volition because of those thoughts.

You've just defeated your own argument. God allowed it. That's that. HaSatan has no free will. He was doing as God willed by testing Job.

No, you skimmed my post instead of giving it the attention it was due. That may be what your bible says but it is not what the Tanach says. And absolutely it would make sense that Christians would attribute names they believed were related to the messiah to Jesus, however in this case they are off, at least from a Jewish perspective (this is the Jewish board.) The text would more accurately be read as:

". For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace.""

With much help from Holy Roman Empire and many weapons of war.

What's all this talk of returning? The tanach says nothing of not getting the job done the first time. Rather, you get the job done the first time and thus olam haba is self-evident to everybody.

But generally Judaism would view these people all as Bnai Noach, and so this would not actually be a falling away from faith but quite the opposite. If you're arguing rather that Christianity is shriveling up, then your arguments are rather weak and flat, as first you state that "The gentile nations have embraced Jesus." Are you just using whatever argument suits you for each response? Anyway, the gentile nations didn't all embrace Jesus. Really primarily those the swords of Christian nations reached. The ones the swords of Muslim nations reached more often than not embraced Muhammed's teachings.

Surely you jest. The rise? But both the Sanatana and Buddha Dharma are older than Christianity.

 

Not to interupt a healthy debate up there but I do get a bit annoyed when I hear the idea put forward that:
'Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah.'

Well its could be said that 'as a people' or maybe more specifically to say the leadership did reject him as messiah.

Of course we know that many Jews did accept him as messiah and obviously that would be his apostles and pretty much just about all of his followers and supporters in the accounts were certainly jews.

This seems like an obvious 'not ALL jews' observation but really its amazing how many people do get confused by this.
You would almost believe that people understand Jesus and his crew came from somewhere else to 'meet the jews'.
In fact they were all jews.

You know, I have always sorta wondered just what sort of percentage of the jews in Jesus day did accept him as Messiah?
I dont think I have ever seen that question researched or even speculated on much.
I figure,
It had to be at least signifigant enough to warrant at least one Apostle dedicated to ministering to the Jews.
There must have been enough jewish presence to explain a seemingly powerful influence on the gentile churches.
(thinking of Paul complaining jewish christians were 'taking over' gentile churches in authority anyways).

I dont know what todays percentage of christian-jews would be either.
We had one guy in our Church.
I know of a few 'Jews for Jesus' orgs but yeah it does seem like a fairly small percentage compared to the greater jewish populations.

 

Ikdenk,

The fact is that the historical record really doesn't have much mention of Jesus at all outside of the texts of the NT, which were all written later, and Jewish sources of the time don't mention him at all. That alone is ample evidence of how significant he was in the Jewish world. Saying most Jews didn't in the original statement would make it sound like there were a decent number of Jews who followed him, and we don't see evidence of that. What we do see evidence of is a hybridization of Jewish and pagan myth and theology that becomes popular among gentiles, and really no way of figuring out who the actual historical figure of Jesus was behind the myth. So I see absolutely no reason why anyone should need to offer any type of clause to the statement "Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah." Now if you want to talk about a false messiah who is in the historical record, both Jewish and non-Jewish, we can talk about Bar Kokhba, who much of the Jews of the time believed was the messiah. But he died without fulfilling all of the prophecies, and so they let go of their belief. That is how it is. The gospels are filled with inaccuracies and aren't really a good source for understanding "the way things were."


As far as "Jews for Jesus", it is not a Jewish organization. It is a christian evangelical organization that targets the Jewish people for stealth missionizing. A wolf in sheep's clothing, if you will. I think it's the most filthy and disgusting type of activity to come out of any religion next to murder. If you're going to missionize, at least be honest about who you are and what you're doing.

 

What is different about HaSatan from the role of a proscutor is the fact that a proscutor is presented with certain obvious facts, and then acts on those facts to bring about a just verdict. God already knew that Job would bless Him no mater what HaSatan did, so there really was no reason to test Job outside of having a future example we could use today. Job was an innocent man. In this case, HaSatan OPPOSED Gods knowledge, and without any facts accuses Job of having a weak faith. I see nothing in Scripture that would suggest that HaSatan's Job was to run down the Godly, and then test them when God knew Himself they were innocent of any crime. HaSatan did this, because that was a product of his evil nature, and not Gods design. God tolorated this, only because of the unique relationship between God and HaSatan. When God gave Job to HaSatan He told him "Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. The evil that fell on Jobs faimily came about because of God allowing HaSatan to have free will over Job. Yet it was HaSatan who worked such evil, which only reveals HaSatan for what he truly is, and that is a murder, and a false accuser, ect. Also, HaSatan would of naturally had to of gotton permission to harm Job even with his free will, because in the end, God is always in control. Even the evil Hilter praticed, was only accomplished by God giving His permision. Hitler had the free will to do terrible things, yet it was God that allowed that. Free will is not always a blank check. God is always in control, because He is God.