Would Christ approve of Christian hate?

Any nation that can justify the slaughter of children will reap their reward. If a political move could stop the slaughter, that would be fine with me. Yet America according to the prophecies will be judged by God for what we are doing. And that is why the Bible tells us, that our nations end will come in one hours time. God is going to abort all who embrace murder. God is going to allow northern nations to destroy us. And yes, I believe every word I have spoken, and no, I am not an idiot because I value a childs life. Do you believe an Idiot is someone who opposes murder? Do you believe the Christians who tried to save Jews during World War II were Idiots? Someday, you may find yourself standing before millions of aborted children, and one of them might ask the question. "Why did you not try to stop them from doing that to us?" Will you tell them, "Because they were better off dead? Will you tell them their birth would just complicate the lives of others? Will you tell God, He has to understand, that the murder of the innocent, was a necessary evil? Will you tell God, it was just about politics anyway, so whats the big deal? The Bible tells us, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. And I can tell you right now, those who passively support murder, will not be received well when they stand before Him.

 

I'm debating from the position of the conservative Apologetic Press and their stance on Jeremiah's prophecy: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/248

I find their position far more plausible than yours, and history supports that position better than your modern reinterpretation of the passages. If you're actually interested in what I believe... well, I believe the prophecy fails no matter which way you look at it, and that the text of Jeremiah in question was actually written after the fall of Babylon, and prophecy written after the fact makes for some really accurate prophecies. However, for purposes here, their position is just an easier one to take for debating you.

The point you miss with all prophecies in general, is that the people who wrote those prophecies were writing them in a context for the people then. What I think "mountain" and "many waters" and "sea" mean are irrelevant. When Babylon fell to Cyrus, the generations that followed knew it closed that prophecy. When Jesus didn't fulfill all the messianic prophecies, suddenly excuses had to be made, and here we are today debating the "literal" word of God, which I find a little amusing for you to mention. The "literal" prophecies aren't being fulfilled today, as the "literal" meaning of the prophecies are referring to times and events that happened a long, long time ago. Saying that Babylon should be substituted with America is not a literal interpretation. So tell me, who's changing words here?

The fig parable is nothing more than an allegory that can be bent to mean about a million different things. Besides, that entire prophecy falls apart with the meaning of "this generation" in the following passage. There is not one instance of "this generation" referring to a future generation in the Bible, it always always always means the generation being spoken to. If you're familiar with the term lost in translation, that's what happens with so many of these prophecies... what can be theorized in English texts falls apart when the orginal language the text was written in is investigated by linguistic scholars... a fact ignored by believers in Biblical Inerrancy. This also brings us full circle, yet again, to Messianic prophecy and why the Jews didn't accept Jesus. His prophecy was a requirment to be fulfilled in order for Him to be the Messiah... He was to bring peace to Israel and they were to be secure in their borders from then forever-more. This did not happen, therefore He wasn't The Messiah, and if you wish to debate that, take it up with the Jews... I've wasted enough time.

 

If you look at the prophecies of the Bible from only a human perspective you will never understand them, thats why the Bible tells us the natural man will not understand the things of the Spirit. You think the Bible is full of errors, and that would be natural, because you don't know Christ. Many years ago I asked God in a prayer to show me the prophecies and their understanding. It was about a year later when He opend my eyes. I discoverd that at the same time He show me, many other Christians were having their eyes open to these prophecies as well, and all of it in a moment in time. Revelation 18 which was written about some 1900 years ago speaks of Babylon which matches the Babylon in Jermiah 50, and 51. This Babylon is described as Mystery Babylon, and speaks of her future destruction that would happen in one hours time. The wording in Revelation 18 matches the wording found in Jermiah 50, and 51, and that is no accident. The prophecies can only be understood when you put the Prophecies that speak of Babylon found in the Old Testament, and the Prophecies about Babylon in the New Testament together. Linguistic Scholars are lost in their Linguistics, the Bible was never written only for the educated. The Scholars do not have a leg up on Gods truth. The Bible tells us, it's understanding will come to those who ask. And it is the Holy Spirit who does the teaching, and not the men of this world, who often oppose God's written Word. The Jews missed Christ coming because they could only understand the prophecies with their human understanding. And the prophecies that Christ did not fulfill, are the prophecies that will be fulfilled when He returns again. You like the Jews are trying to put the cart before the horse, and then fail to understand why that picture looks wrong.

 

Like I said, I knew I wasn't going to change your mind, and I'm pretty much done debating the matter for the moment. The only question I have left is why do you try to present these prophecies to people curious about Christianity who aren't believers in Christ? From what you've said, only those who are firm in their faith can understand them, and I take it the verse you're referring to is: "Unto you is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but, unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables; that seeing, they may see and not perceive, and hearing, they may hear and not understand, lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins be forgiven them" (Mark iv.). This is one of the problems I have with Biblical morality; it's outright deception. How on earth are we to be converted when the message is hidden from us? By looking at prophecies we can't understand because the message is hidden? By looking at the statements of Jesus, who speaks in parables so that we can't understand Him? Of course you're probably going to say we should sincerely ask God... well that's what a whole bunch of people are here trying to do. Unfortunately, we can never fully trust the answers we may receive, because the ever righteous God plans something different for us seekers: "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess. ii. 11, 12). We're damned for not believing a truth hidden from us! Way to go, God! How do you know that the visions shown to you weren't a lie planted in your head by God Himself?

Not everyone in this forum here has the sole purpose of trashing Christianity... many want to believe, they feel that something is out there and they're seeking... I'm one of them, and all you have to say is that the message is hidden so that I can't understand. I used to be a Christian, I prayed and studied and with the answers I receieved, my faith was shaken. Here's what Jesus says to do to people like me, "But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither and slay them before me" (Luke xix. 27). That's one forgiving God right there, full of love and kindness.

 

Is this to say that You should have no say, in what gay people do. And thus should grant them this human respect you speak by when saying that you cannot control them. Remember were all sinners, so persecution is not the word we are looking for, but supporting of the good qualities, would be most effective
Correct?

 

What you say is very true. The heart of the subject must be won in order for the prophecies have any significance to them.

What's being forgotten is *how* people are won... Through their hearts, & not their heads... Lest we fail in our quest to prove an absolute spirituality
we can enforce on others, & have to *live* by the principles the Word was created to give in the 1st place.

Any ideology or philosophical work takes much reflection to interpret to the Self in a way that is meaningful. But that's half of the point, isn't it? And the best part of the journey, IMO... But I'm a nerd, & I'm waaay too into my major. I'll ask you to excuse me.

I really do understand your frustrations... But remember that Eve plucked the Forbidden Fruit that gave us the ability to *differentiate* b/t Good and Evil. We *do* know the difference, and that's why we couldn't stay in Eden.

Deep inside, the G-d Given Soul you have knows when it is feeling pleasure @ the expense of others, & knows it to be evil, even though it feels "good". Whether we care, or even get a greater high off of that evil breaks down to the individual... Even Christians who get on a power trip about "who can marry whom," in direct defiance of G-d Given Free Will.

Yet He wills for all men to have salvation. Who are His True Enemies...? Those who speak His Name only, & follow not His Path... Or those whose ways are in alignment with His?

P.S. - It's all figurative and principle-based, written in an archaic form that doesn't translate well, culturally. Don't be too creeped out, okay?

 

Their lifestyle has caused millions of deaths around the world and you think that should be supported? And that is not even from the Bible that is common sense.

 

No. 1. You need to stop pulling verses out of context. The strong delusion God will send on the world will come during the Great Tribulation, and is not in effect at this time.
No. 2. (Luke xix.27) But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither and slay them before me, was pulled out of context. Jesus was speaking of this as a Parable, and the word, Lord here was not speaking of Jesus, but a certain nobleman which you will find in verse 12 of that chapter.
No. 3. Being a Christian is more than trying to act like a Christian, Judas tried to act Christian to, but in the end, he returned to who he really was. If you are sincere before God, He will honor your sincerity. Jesus said, Seek and ye shall find. Those who are open to Him and have a strong desire to know the truth will find it. Sometimes His answers take a long time to reach you, and sometimes, they come seconds after you ask Him, but God is listening. You need to tell Jesus you don't know if He is real or not. Then ask Him in prayer, if He is real. And then ask Him if He would make His presence plain to you? Dont be afraid to actually ask God to reveal Himself to you. And always adress Him as Jesus so there will be no mistake who you are speaking with. If Jesus was a phony, I would of gave up on Him long ago. You don't end up like me, unless God has revealed Himself to you. Jesus Christ, is a God of wonder. He is the real thing.

 

FIRST, let me say that I am appalled just by the complete IGNORANCE of this post. But I will humor this horrendous logic momentarily.

So has christian oppression throughout the ages. Only difference is the people in homosexual relationships were participating consentually and they didn't create AIDS (which is what I assume you are talking about - cause i dunno what else it could be) nor force it's spread around the world...

Now, the people being tortured and killed by christians over the ages....I think if we asked those victims they would say that was far less consentual.

You should consider yourself lucky to be living in a place liberal and progressive enough to support your right to yoiur beliefs despite your own religion's crimes; even though you obviously don't give near that same support to a group of people far less dangerous than your religion and it's crimes have turned out to be.


BTW, to all the bigots out there: Just because AIDS was first recognized in teh U.S. among homosexual men DOES NOT mean it started there or was caused by them. Definitely not spread across the world by them. In fact scientists and doctors think it started in Africa. It was spread worldwide predominately through drug use and blood transfusions. The only people going on about how it started because of homosexuals are uninformed religious bigots. Take some time and educate yourselves:
http://www.avert.org/origins.htm

 

It's no coincidence that AIDS was first discovered in the human race in homosexuals and that it is rife in their community. Plus the other health risks that come with gay people, I think it's easy to put two and two together. God says homosexuality is wrong, that's all I need to here. However I don't hate anybody or anything, I just think that lifestyle is wrong.

 

You are completely ignoring the facts simply because they don't fit with your opinion.

AIDS is much more rife in Africa, I didn't realize that was a big gay destination......

And why can't it be coincidence that it was first discovered in homosexuals? Drug use, permiscuis sex, transfusions, all to blame - but homosexuals specifically are absolutely not.

WTF...

Please, tell me, what other health risks come with gay people?


You obviously have done no research on AIDS or homosexuality outside of you and your buddies, family members or church pals sitting around talking about how icky homosexuals are, and all the things you "think" they do, and all the things you "think" they could cause. Not to mention your comments and flat out refusal of the facts scream intolerant bigot.

You belong with the pat robertson type who doom whole communities for not being perfectly christian, and not choosing to follow your beliefs. Let me guess, you also blame the sin in New Orleans for the hurricane, and you'll be cheering when the people who voted god out of the cirruculum in Pennsylvania get mowed down by tornadoes or something.

And talk about coincidence...I think it is no coincidence there so many racists and bigots within your religion. I think there is no coincidence in all the violence that has spawned from your religion, now and throughout history. I find that FAR more troublesome than who's sleeping with who.

 

First of all, calm down. I've noticed you're an angry person from past posts, this is just my opinion and I've already said I don't have hate.

Other health risks I'm referring to are that a lot of gay people can't control their bowel movement and have to wear adult nappies (diapers) because they are so damaged in that area, you don't know about that cause it's an embarrassing problem, one that rarely gets spoken of. And I have researched AIDS and you'll be surprised to know that I checked out your website link, but science has been wrong before and I happen to believe it's wrong about this.

And as for my religion, I'm no longer a strong follower of any religion. But I have love for God and Jesus. There are racist bigots in Christianity, and the religion is also very judgemental and contradictory which is why I choose to worship and pray to God in my own way. I happen to believe homosexuality is wrong, but I would never try to incite hatred towards them. They are free to lead there life as they choose, just as I'm free to give my opinion in a forum and stay away from them.

I do not cheer when people die and was very saddened by hurricane Katrina. So accusing me of that is a bit harsh, but I do think God punishes people, I don't believe in coincidences, am I happy about that? No, but that's what I believe.

This is a forum so people give their opinions, I suggest you get used to people having different opinions to you otherwise you'll stay miserable, bitter, and angry, for ever.

 

I'll bet money you got that from a christian website. I work in clinical research and have a number of studies at my fingertips that say otherwise. Where are your sources? I'd also recommend a close look at who conducted them before providing them...

Singling out gay people for a problem that's rampant for everyone who's sexually promiscuous will piss off any compassionate human being. The big thing the Bible doesn't do too well supporting is civil rights. A woman belongs in the kitchen, black people belong in chains, and gay people belong in hell. Go God!

 

There is a passage in the bible in which Jesus talks of divorce.

" Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."


7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. "

People were permitted to divorce because they did not care enough (hearts were hard). There are many things that are permitted, but the main rules are Love God the most and Love thy neighbor as yourself. If you are fulfilling these rules, you will not desire sex with many partners (homo or hetero) because God fulfills your needs.

 

Except that I get the feeling if it didn't stop "the slaughter" that would be just fine with you too, you would still support it becuase really, you're just looking for something to get self righteous about that doesn't require anything from you.

A real solution might involve effort or sacrifice on your part.
All you have to do to take the stand you've taken is ignore the statistics and point the finger at someone else.

No, I don't believe you do. I think you're playing some kind of weird game.

I say, "so if a 15 yr. old girl gets raped and winds up bleeding to death because of a botched abortion, you'll walk away feeling like she got what she deserved"?
You say, "You feel sorry for her so obviously you're in favor of abortion".

You make up some bullshit statistics off the top of your head.
I say "show me the proof".
You provide me with "proof" that has nothing to do with what we're talking about and doesn't prove anything except that you don't know what you're talking about.

I show you some real stats,
You ignore them.

Bottom line is you obviously couldn't care less about the truth.

You have your agenda and if the facts don't support it, you make up your own.

If you're arguing with someone and you can't refute what they say, you pretend they said something else.

And if the bible doesn't support what you say, you re-write that too.

Noone said you were. For that matter noone said you were an idiot.
I think someone who pretends to care about something when he obviously doesn't, just to make himself look good, is a hypocrite.

If you were an idiot you'd have an excuse.

No, but with your propensity to ignore the truth and commit yourself to propaganda I believe if this were Nazi Germany you'd be out hunting jews yourself.

And one of them might ask you, "Why were you pretending to care about us in order to further your political agenda? Why were you pushing for a solution that wouldn't solve anything instead of trying to find one that would?"

Will you tell God, "I'm sorry I took your name in vain, I was just doing what my preacher told me to"?

When He says, "If you thought Jesus was the Christ, why didn't you live the way he told you to"? will you say, "Because someone told me that serving my own selfish ends was the same thing if I did it in his name"?

When he says, "If you believed the bible was my word, why did you lie about what it says"? Will you say, "Don't look at me, I didn't even read it"?

Guess it's a good thing for you you don't believe in him then. Obviously you don't or you wouldn't be playing these games.

 

... sorry...

 

Sorry. when I see someone making up false allogations, misquoting me or lying outright about what I said (since you can't find any fault with anything I actually did say), I just assume it comes from anger.

But I guess I shouldn't assume.
It could just as easily come from fear.

 

did you fart?

 

Im sure the kkk has caused more deaths than gays, And you support their marriage. Or atleast you dont fight it like gays.
The finger you cast at gays is what causes deaths, not their gay love.

 

Some people become angry with injustice. I think it's a perfectly reasonable emotion to have, & personally, I wish more people would become angry w/ the injustice they see in the world, b/c that would mean we're taking steps towards becoming more compassionate people.

Wow. That's pretty far out. Did you have a link to this information, or maybe a source so I can check this out for myself...? I'd really appreciate that.

BTW, does this mean you're against heterosexual married couples engaging in anal sex, even though it occurs within the confines of a proper marriage...? If what you claim is true, that means a couple of my girlfriends must be wearing diapers underneath their jeans.

No wonder I hear the sound of rustling plastic every time they walk by.

AIDS is an indiscriminate killer, Anaconda Man. I had a pastor when I was a child who had an accident in Haiti and had to have a blood transfusion... By which he contracted AIDS. Please don't harden your heart towards people w/ this disease, even if you don't agree w/ their lifestyle.

Until the science is proven wrong (if this even occurs), you've no evidence to the contrary regarding these alleged health risks... I don't know who you know, or what you've seen, but when I go to my gay friend's house, & his place is embarrassingly immaculate... I feel like I'm contaminating something by sitting down. LOL.

You're certainly free to give your opinion... But I'd like to reflect on something here... & please take this for what it is worth, I don't mean any harm, okay?

You say that you don't hate, & you imply that you're not one of the judgmental Christians, yet you specifically stay away from people who engage in a particular sin? Doesn't this imply that you think homosexuality is a worse sin than others, even though all the participants are voluntary, unlike other sins we choose to engage in?

Where in the Bible does it say that it is proper to "rate" sin, or worse yet, to judge other people...? I could be wrong, but this seems to be what you're doing in *avoiding* certain types of people who don't live up to the standards of The Law, even though *NO ONE* can live up to the standards of The Law (Romans 3:23).

In other words, you say that you love G-d and Jesus... Yet, you don't love His People?

Even if we are to assume you are correct, who will be saved by some self-righteous Pharisee standing over the ruins of his or her life, looking down his long self-righteous nose, hissing a contemptuous "I told you so"...? Do you really feel this is done in the best interest of compassion...?

Most of the Non-Christians in here *do* respect differences in opinion, which is why they don't think that opinions should be applied in ways that limit the ability of others to live their lives, free to apply their G-d Given Free Will to make any choice they please, so long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right to do likewise.

Anyways... Jesus doesn't avoid His People. Thank goodness! He loves the sinner while hating the sin... If homosexuality is even *truly* a sin, and not a command based on the principle of perpetuating one's own bloodline.

Peace and Love ALWAYS!!!
Julie