Would Christ approve of Christian hate?

Very nice story. I agree that the Trail of Tears wasn't a result of the true Christian faith. If only all Christians could learn from this story, and realize that our duty to lead others to Christ requires us to "crucify the flesh," not excluding swallowing pride and being sure to give kind, patient, loving answers to *all* people, even the ones who attack and insult us. (Not referring to your response to me, of course - Thanks for your feedback, BTW... )

I agree, we would *not* know who Christ was without the prophecy of the OT. In light of this though, until He came into being in the physical sense, it was probably pretty useless for Jews to use prophecies of the Messiah who had not come yet to "prove" their faith.

Prophecies have both been made and fulfilled in almost all ideologies, but prophecy doesn't give people the spiritual "food" they need to grow. You may disagree, but I've not seen much use at all for prophecy in regards to convincing the unsaved. The unsaved need something they can apply in their lives to bring them both order and abundance, not ancient omens of destruction. Personally, I've seen tales of Christ's love and witness to the interpersonal changing power of His Holy Spirit work much better.

Sir, I never implied these prophecies to be fairy tales. I have great respect for the writings of my people. All I was pointing out is that, until these things come to pass, we might prefer to give people something they can use over threatening them with stories of things that have not yet come to pass...?

Human beings are selfish creatures. If what's relayed to them isn't something they can directly use or doesn't directly seem to apply to them, chances are good that your average person won't commit what they're hearing to their stored memory banks. This is sad, of course, but so is human nature....

G-d's Will is to have *all* men saved. I do my best to work in accordance with bringing that to fruition - As do you, I imagine. And I respect that. But this isn't about political correctness, this is about a genuine concern for *all* G-d's people, those who are saved, and those who are not saved yet.

Rather than assume that you don't understand G-d's Plan, I would ask you to consider what the desired outcome of your efforts are. To bring others to salvation, so that they may accept and enjoy an abundant life, correct? When someone desires a particular outcome, he or she needs to make sure the methods applied aren't actually hindering their progress.

In other words, while your motivation is certainly noble, what good is that if the plans brought to action by this motivation aren't producing the desired results? Isn't it time for another plan of action?

 

I've already explained that but I'll try again;

Exodus 21:23
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exodus 21:22-24 (in Context) Exodus 21 (Whole Chapter)


^^As I've said, "life for life" would imply that someone died.

Here's some more;

Genesis 42:4
But Benjamin, Joseph's brother, Jacob sent not with his brethren; for he said, Lest peradventure mischief befall him.
Genesis 42:3-5 (in Context) Genesis 42 (Whole Chapter)

^^It's pretty clear that Jacobs worried about Benjamin's life here.



Genesis 42:38
And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.
Genesis 42:37-39 (in Context) Genesis 42 (Whole Chapter)


^^And here.




Exodus 32:12
Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Exodus 32:11-13 (in Context) Exodus 32 (Whole Chapter)

^^^This one's self explanitory.


Deuteronomy 32:23
I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
Deuteronomy 32:22-24 (in Context) Deuteronomy 32 (Whole Chapter)



^^^This, and the verse that follows it (I've provided a link that you can check) equates mischiefs with death.

1 Samuel 23:9
And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod.
1 Samuel 23:8-10 (in Context) 1 Samuel 23 (Whole Chapter)

^^^Saul was definately planning to kill David.

Already showed you how that explanation couldn't possibly work.

The bible seems to think it does.

No, it requires one to read the bible. the rest of what you said is a pretty good desciption of what you're doing (do you think noone notices?)

Who said "only"? I'm just saying (as is the bible) that in the case of Ex. 21:23 it's refering to someone having died.

Because in this case it's something more akin to what we would consider manslaughter, an unintentional murder.

None of this addresses the primary point which is; the bible obviously considers the death of the mother to be a much more serious consequence than the death of the fetus.

Getting caught up in semantics doesn't change that.

You have to lie to make what I say sound unreasonable. I think that speaks volumes.

Again, I never said "only". And you seem to be the one ignoring what's written--in the bible and in my posts.

If you wanted to address my actual words and the points I've made and show me a flaw in my logic or interpretation, that would be fine.

But you never do. You try to make what I say sound unreasonable by ignoring most of what I say and taking the rest out of context, putting words in my mouth, and changing words like "could" into "must be" and "sometimes" into "always".

You never explain your point logically, you just state it as if it were a given and if anyone opposes it, you ascribe some vague alterior motive to them for opposing you.

I'm curious to know what you think my motives are. I spend almost as much time in here arguing with non-christians as I do with christians, and for the same reason--none of you are telling the truth about what's in the bible.

You say "...the extent you will go to to ignore what's clearly stated". I'm curious to know why you think I would do that.

When I argue with the skeptics in here they usually label me a christian and disregard everything i've said out of hand on the assumption that I'm "defending my faith", which, in their minds, excuses them from having to consider anything I've said.

Very convienant. It allows them to hang on to any misconceptions about the bible they've become attached to.

You seem to be doing the same thing so I'm wonderring what label you have to ascribe to me to make that work for you.

 

Leaving for work, yet with time short, I will say you are right, someone did die, and it was the child, not the mans wife, the mischief spoken of is in reference to the offender not living up to the judges decesion. And if the offender now murdered the wife, it would of been clearly stated in the text. It was the offender not liveing up to the judges order that resulted in the offence.
The life for a life is speaking of the only life the passage clearly states was lost. Her unborn child. To suggest that another murder took place, is adding to the text, and is not supported by any stretch of the imagination. The problem with YOUR idea of the death of the mother is that is pure speculation on your part. The text does not support your idea. The only death clearly stated is the death of the unborn child.

 

Again, I've already explained to you why your interpretation doesn't work.

Of course I'm speculating, so are you.
My speculation is based on deductive reasoning that follows the verse line for line, and it's backed up by other examples in the bible.

Yours is based on--????????

You're not addressing my explanation in any meaningful way, you're just repeating your original point.

Unless you say something I haven't already refuted I'm going to consider this case closed.

 

I was reading another consideration from another Christian who is seperate from us, and here it is.

Some teach that "her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow" means that the mother has a miscarriage, and loses the child, resulting in a fine, while the phrase "if any mischief follow" means that the woman herself dies or is severely injured. This interpretation is not reasonable, however, or true to the text.

What "her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow," refers to is a premature birth, in which neither the mother nor the child suffer serious injury. How could the death of the unborn child be considered "no mischief''? The fine was imposed because of the threat to the life of the mother and the child by the negligence of the fighting men. Although some modern translators have inserted the word "miscarriage" in verse 22, the Hebrew word used in the original text means birth, not miscarriage.(There is a different Hebrew word for miscarriage, which Moses used in Exodus 23:26. Notice the clear meaning in the NIV: "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows" (Exodus 21:22).
The phrase "if any mischief follow" in Exodus 21:23, does not make any distinction between the mother and her unborn child. The "life for life, eye for eye" law applied equally. In fact, if any distinction is being made between the mother and the child, the more natural understanding is that "if any mischief follow" applies more directly to the child than it does to the mother, because the focus of the discussion is on what happens when the "fruit" departs from the mother. Significantly, the law of Exodus 21:22-25 applied as harshly to the accidental death or injury of the unborn child as it does to the intentional death or injury of any other innocent person. Exodus 21 upholds the value of innocent human life. Abortion destroys innocent human life.

The real understanding can only be understood when you go to the orginal hebrew, and its meaning. The fruit departed appears to be speaking of a live premature birth, which of corse changes everything.

 

The prophecies of the Bible are already coming to pass, and most of the church knows little of them because they are rarely even spoken of, and most ministers have not done their homework in this area, leaving their people clueless.
Telling the world that Christ is coming and giving proof of this blessed event is something all christians should be doing. I have personally seen dramatic changes in a number of families who have been presented with these prophecies of truth. I HAVE SEEN THE DESIERED RESULTS. And I have seen the results in a number of churches, where Christ return is swept under the carpet. Most of these churches lack vision, and the excitement one gets when they look forward to Christ return. God gave us these prophecies for a reason, and that is why He said blessed is the man that reads them.

 

Some churches are wary of it... Remember that the Charismatic movement was undone by their obsession with prophecy. Many don't feel that the spiritual benefit achieved is worth losing proper focus - In other words, if it doesn't benefit the Spirit, it's pretty much good for nothing.... Remember what Jesus said about the End Times in Matthew 24:

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Famines and war and earthquakes... Has there ever been a time in history where the Earth has not been plagued by such things...? No. Indeed not. Let's continue:

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

We're told not to believe the hype when people try to force us to think that Christ is returning... It will be *OBVIOUS* when He goes to return, there will be no mistake about it!

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

We aren't intended to know when the day or hour is, Mr. Campbell. We are to act as if He is always "right around the corner." Anyone who tries to tell people that it will be a certain day and hour is really fooling himself and the public, not to mention completely missing the point of *WHY* we weren't told in the first place.

Have you ever thought that He may not even come back physically, and that Christ's Return will be when we finally learn to respect His Ways and allow the peace He already won for us to reign on the planet? Or are we so dedicated to our own ideas of how things should occur that we actually work against it....?

Mr. Campbell, you have my sympathies. I do believe you've seen results. You may have seen these results in real life, but also, in this forum, your words can't be tempered by the kindness in your voice, or the love in your eyes. What is effective when we can minister to people in a personal fashion may not work when the setting is not at all personal...

Besideswhich, I wonder how effective witness is when we are more concerned about bringing "our message" than we are concerned about the people we're bringing it to. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be very true... That includes the subject of homosexuals... When we're more concerned about what a book says about it than we are concerned about the individual who has always been that way and cannot help who he or she loves, we're really missing the point... Making people do things "our way" isn't the way that G-d intended things to be... If it was, do you really think He would have bestowed us with Free Will?

How can He give us Free Will that is truly free, for us to use in controlling the Free Will acts of others, which we don't think should be free at all...?

 

The Bible clearly states that when Christ returns the world will not be happy to see His return. Most of this world will not turn to Christ, because as the Bible states many are called but few are chossen. And the one sign of Christ soon return is the return of the Jews to Israel, and their retaking Jerusalem by force. No generation has seen this since Christ died on the cross. On this forum, many here do not believe the Bible is true. Yet the Bible has the evidence to demonstrate its truth. Should we just forget about this evidence? What a Book says? You mean the Word of God, yes I am concerned about what the Books says, and I cannot ignore its words to make others feel good. The Bible is either telling us the full truth, or it's nothing but a pack of lies. I believe it is telling us the truth, and I believe Christians are here on earth to tell others this truth. Christ will return physically as Christ said He would, and I do not believe He lied to us. Its not about us making people do things are way, its about tell people that we all should do things God's way. And Gods way is clearly stated in the Scriptures. God has given us free will to choose His way, or the way of Satan, and most often people will choose the latter.
I don't claim to know the day or the hour, yet the Bible in the Book of Revelation clearly tells us, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy," The Bible tells us that the generation that sees the Jews return as a nation will not pass away until all end prophecies will be fulfilled. That generation started in the year 1948. The Old Testament tells us that God will raise the dead and those who love God on His third day. Gods third day will begin in the year 2034, and the generation from 1948 will be 86 years old. It is not just chance that these two dates are coming together. Yet you would of had to of studied the prophecies to understand this. The sleeping church are the one's not watching for Christ return. Jesus said that His return will be like Noahs flood, everyone was eating and drinking, and not paying attention untill the flood came and took them all away. Jesus said, this is what will happen when He returns again. This warning came from Jesus Christ, and is found in Matthew:25,42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Jesus commands us to be watching for Him, and there are many more reasons today than ever before not to ignore His words, or His prophecies.

 

>duplicate delete<

 

Saying that few are chosen still implies that G-d chooses who will be saved, does it not? If this is the case, and salvation is not available to all, why curse the clay for being what the Potter molded it to be?

May 14, 1948 the Nation of Israel became a nation, over fifty years ago. Luke 21: 32"I tell you the truth, this generation[b] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Even if this was intended to mean the generation that witnessed the occurrance you reference, "this generation" would refer to a time span of about 30 years, if taken from the Greek. Why wouldn't Jesus be referencing the Destruction of Jerusalem rather than the second coming?
http://www.bible.ca/pre-mt24-this-generation.htm

No sir.... Not absolute truths that can be enforced upon others. Spiritual truth may be found within it for some, perhaps, but not *absolute* truth. There is a difference.

No sir.... But you can revise how you market it. You should decide the order of importance regarding your message. Do people stop being sinners and then accept Christ? Or do people accept Christ and let the Holy Spirit do the work of motivating them towards cleaning up their lives...?

From A Four Star Church a very fundamentalist gentleman proposes a very novel idea I greatly appreciated. He claimed that, if we were in the business of treating illnesses, we would not be doing as the patients desired, but rather as we were required... BUT, if we have the option to give the patient a chewable grape flavoured tablet over a painful injection, why would we choose the latter over the former?

"Telling" becomes "making" if it is a law, is it not? In reference to this thread, we're talking about the marital union of gays and lesbians. You may tell people anything you like, but I suggest you do it compassionately, and don't *force* anyone to do anything.

I may not believe in a literal Bible and I'm certainly not a fundamentalist, but I've very much received and ingrained the lessons and principles the Bible has taught me on my heart. That seems to be more than enough to benefit me and those of my line of thought - It keeps us humble and loving towards all people, no matter what their affliction, if we should even assert their "sins" to be an affliction at all.

Choosing to make people obey by force could be considered a way of Satan, since it usurps G-d Given Free Will, could it not?

Now we get into semantics. Can we prove that "this generation will not pass" means that the children born at the time of this predicted occurrance? Or do we only interpret it that way because the generation of people that Jesus was speaking to have most certainly passed on...?

This still equates to looking for omens to give us warning, so we can prepare ourselves, though the L-rd comes like a thief in the night - Which is still missing the point of why we're not supposed to look for signs, because we're always supposed to be ready, etc. etc.

I ignore none of His Words, nor any of the Prophecies, but I take them all in context, and I don't choose to focus more on the parts I like over the parts I don't like. I could be wrong, but you seem to spend a whole lot of time focusing on Prophecy... Why not refresh on some of the topics regarding character and what kind of person makes it into the Kingdom of G-d? Or Christ's Parables...?

All of these can be valuable witnessing tools, and none of them requires the intended to turn into an anxious fearful shadow of a human being staring blankly into the sky for signs, or looking under rocks for danger for the rest of his days.

 

This whole thing with some Christians being "excited" about these so-called End Times events...it's creepy. I've checked out a site called "Rapture Ready", where a bunch of people analyze each new crisis in the Middle East with knowing smugness. They seem to eagerly anticipate more war and bloodshed, since these signify the fulfillment of the prophecies that they so fervently believe in. They remind me of a pack of hungry vultures.

 

I can't help how some view these events. I'm a Christian, and I like where my life is right now, and I am not looking forward to a war with Nukes, but I can't ignore the Scriptures either. The Bible states that in the last days perlious times will come. I know that in the end, the only real protection will be found in the person of Jesus Christ. The prophecies are true, and everything stated in them will happen just as the Bible fortold. Yet those who put their faith in Christ, will be saved.

 

1. Salvation is for all people, yet God knows that most will reject it. As Christians, we need to search for those who seek His truth.

2. The Bible does not limit a generation to 30 years. And the text in question states that the generation will not pass away. Saying that it must be 30 years, is a clear departure to what was stated. In God's third day which is the year 2034, the generation from 1948 will be 86 years old. These two time periods have not come together because of chance. For those who wrote the Words of this Old Testament prophecy, had no idea that the Jews would declare Israel a nation in 1948.

3. Jesus stated that Jerusalem would be destroyed, yet the Bible also states that in the latter days the Jews would return to the land of Israel, and retake Jerusalem by force. You cannot just look at the prophecies that make you feel good, and ignore the ones that don't fit your world view.

4. The Bible is true, and we all have the right to accept it or reject it. And some people will clean up their lives when you give them a good reasone to do so. And often people will act in such a positive manner when you begin by telling them the truth.

5. Telling does not make it a law. Telling is just stating the facts. And if my house is on fire, I would rather have someone screaming to warn me of the danger, than someone who is trying to wake me up by wispering from afar.

6. Telling the truth has nothing to do with making people obey by force. Everyone will either love God because they desire to, or will turn from Him because they don't want Him. In the end, everyone has a choice to make, and it will be their choice. True Love cannot be forced on anyone.

7. Jesus said we should be looking for his return, if you are living for Christ this is a natural part of being a Christian. It is the hope of being with Christ.

8. This world ignores the prophecies of the Bible and that is why the Jews missed Christ first coming, and that is why the world is going to miss His second coming. And I believe Christians who ignore these prophecies will be partly to blame for a world that is unprepared when Christ returns.

Mathew 24:30 Then will all the tribes of the earth morn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and Great Glory.

The reason the tribes of the earth are morning, is because no one warned them that Christ was coming again.

 

love is love is love.