Would YOU vote for RON PAUL

Discussion in 'Politics' started by p51mustang23, Sep 26, 2011.

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  1. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Bal,

    Most everyone experiences some hardships during their lifetimes. When I say that "shit happens" or "just live with it" what I've been trying to get across to you is that even if suffering is "no fault of your own" it doesn't entitle you or government to make someone else responsible. It does not preclude others from willingly providing assistance. Societies are structures created by the people who live within them. You often complain of the power exerted by those with wealth over our government, and fail to accept as fact that the wealth taken from the people in the form of taxes is used by those who govern to exert power over the people. If you would like to change the structure in a way beneficial to society as a whole, the best way to go about that would be to find a way to make all members of each society productive in some way that benefits their society. That task is made more difficult as societies grow larger. You seem to stop at "live with it" while the intent in meaning is "accept it", and then get on with making changes as found necessary to improve rather than waste time trying to place blame.

    It's like a good paying job becomes available and you find someone else has already been hired when you go to apply. An advantage was exercised by the job seeker who responded most quickly. Was that unfair or unjust? Perhaps you were better qualified, but your advantage was lost simply because of tardiness. You spend too much time and effort classifying persons as suffering lumping them together without any care as to why they are suffering, but only with intent to alleviate suffering by deferring responsibility to those you feel are unjustly and unfairly not equally sharing in the suffering, while they may be doing much more already than you attribute them to be doing.
     
  2. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

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    If we just say that societies are structures created by the people in them, and that the government and what bal sees as urfair government, was created by the people in the society, then we can say the same to you.

    In fact, I think government might be mare to his liking, than yours, in many ways. And you should accept that the society was built by the people in it, and those of us who seek to change it, just like you, are just people in it trying to build it better.

    With this in mind, I don't see so much substance for your assertations about government or it's role. This is a society built by it's people, and if those people decide something about government, or decide to accept what the government does, that should be fine. If people decide they want welfare, or whatever else, then it's up to the people in the society to decide that the government should act in that way.
     
  3. 56olddog

    56olddog Member

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    I'm checking the "or what" box, since (based on what I've seen from you previously) neither one's qualifications nor experience will likely be considered of even minuscule value when compared to what may have been read or written previously if you happen to disagree with a particular opinion or position.


    LOL

    The only "inability" involved here is yours: to understand that I have no interest in what Paulson may have written nor in Ritholtz's criticisms of that (or of anything else he may choose to take issue with).

    It is interesting that you seem to find any assertion "more valid" due simply to lack of refutation.
     
  4. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Para 1: It's unclear 'what' it is that you would like to say to me.

    Para 2: I'm sure that government is more to Bals liking in many ways than it is to mine, as long as continues moving Leftward. Generally, changes for the better are accomplished as a result of a majority of the people agreeing to the changes.
    Better for whom?

    Para 3: I do accept the fact that societies are built by the people who live in them, but recognize that the U.S.A. like any large population is NOT a single society, but many differing societies who are united under a Constitution based law of Federal governance. Societal changes are meant to come about as defined in our Constitution, not by elected representatives and the courts redefining or reinterpreting the words within the Constitution to achieve an agenda without need of consent by the people.

    Many of the changes which have led us down the path of great indebtedness over the last century are a result of government ignoring the limitations of its powers under the Constitution, the creation of the Federal reserve, 16th and 17th amendments. Ron Paul seems to be one of very few politicians who recognizes that, and a great many people educated over the last 6 decades have been indoctrinated under a increasingly Socialist government run education system.
     
  5. outthere2

    outthere2 Senior Member

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    I'm stupefied as to how you can write page after page of this silly nonsense.
     
  6. YoMama

    YoMama Member

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    I think it is interesting that Bilbus a citizen of the UK is in here trying to make us be like them.( Misery loves company) I have discussed Ron Paul in several different online forums and it is always the British people who come up with the most circular argument. We are not the UK the USA became a country rebelling against the Brits and I hope we will continue to rebel against their ideas. Don't forget the the EU and UK economies are even worse than ours and will crash before we do. I hope we can pull back the reins on becoming more like them.
     
  7. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    out2

    I only wish it were nonsense, but considering the vastly different interpretation of our Constitution and form of government from what I was taught in early school, compared to what was attempted to teach me in college many years later serves as quite a sound basis.

    Maybe having a few years, perhaps decades on you, changes which have occurred in our government and its form are much more noticeable.
     
  8. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    As do I.

    It takes little, if any effort at all to share in others failures, but sharing in the success of others requires some effort. That is an advantage the Left exploits in selling their agenda.
     
  9. outthere2

    outthere2 Senior Member

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    There is no 'Left' in the US.
     
  10. outthere2

    outthere2 Senior Member

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    Ron Paul is a Libertarian wherever you live. The criticisms are against Libertarianism.

    What's circular about about their argument?
     
  11. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    So after admitting being stupefied, you're taking refuge as a comedian?
     
  12. outthere2

    outthere2 Senior Member

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    This thread has been degraded beyond recognition.
     
  13. LetLovinTakeHold

    LetLovinTakeHold Cuz it will if you let it

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    Quoted for emphasis
     
  14. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

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    1-was giving the rest of my post a context.

    2-the government is not moving left, it's moving dramatically right, while the repubilcans pretend to complain and push it along. I mean, the individual mandate in obamacare was originally the brainchild of the heratage foundation.... forcing individuals to buy insurance from private companies is a big business wet dream, and the same republicans who demanded it to pass the bill had started complaining by the time it got it's signature. That's just one example of extreme right ideas being branded as left ideas, we don't want that, we want fuckin' socialist single payer.

    3-if the US is a conglomorate of socities, it's the creation of the individual socities, and therefore, a creation of the people composing the whole US. The constitution is subject to the whims of the people and their elected reperesentitives, as they are the ones who create the state they may choose if it really is the law of the land. The constitution is defined by the society, not vice versa.

    4-stop trying to make constitutional amendments sound like violations of the constitution, they AMEND it, that is, they CHANGE it.That's exactly how you think it should be done, so when it's been amended instead of ignored, you should rejoyce. The debt is a result of unbridled greed and stupidity, on many sides and fronts. like in texas, the "lone star state" that wants to seceede from the US and pretends to be all about individual liberty, and we have a fascist police and government system, and the texas school board has REMOVED THOMAS FUCKING JEFFERSON from the textbooks, among other shit.... a socialist federal government might be better than fascist states. They're out to prove that they're not governed by the federal government and in doing so, have done far worse than the feds at this. So yeah, I'm all for the federal government coming and kicking the school board in the ass and being socialists.... I think that conspiring to lie to millions of kids about the foundation of the country, under colour of authority and through the government, should be tried as TREASON. (of course, the same goes for the DEA, et al)
     
  15. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    1. And so you have now.

    2. Okay, so maybe we can now conclude that schools are failing to succeed in teaching left from right in addition to most everything else important in the production of responsible and valuable citizens.
    The "individual mandate" and "obamacare" is a very complicated mess which hopefully will be totally eliminated before it becomes another unsolvable problem of crisis proportion.
    And thank you for openly admitting to being a socialist.

    outthere2: Please take note, there is indeed a 'Left' in the U.S., they simply try to avoid admitting it.

    3. Yes, the U.S. (United States) is a conglomeration of societies. The Constitution is not intended to define the society, but only to define the government and its powers in relation to the rights of the governed. Neither is the Constitution subject to the 'whims' of the people but in changing it subject to a sometimes lengthy process in which both the States and the peoples consent is required. It takes 3/4 of the States and not just a simple majority or 2/3 majority of elected representatives to amend the Constitution. If anything at all we need to eliminate making changes on a whim, totally ignoring both the States and the people if we are to ever once again become solvent economically. Social problems, while sometimes difficult to solve, are best solved by the people without interference by the Federal government except in maintaining peace and remaining neutral, allowing the people to resolve their differences peacefully. The application of Democracy in our government is quite effective when put to use in the more pure form in small societies, who can exhibit the value of the choices they make to adjacent societies who then may adapt similar changes of equal or greater value. The people remain and retain their individual freedoms, taking liberty to move from one to another society. Central government mandates or force more often works only in dividing the people and societies, while advantageous to our politicians and their supporters, at great cost to the governed, and middle classes. The rich remain relatively unaffected, while it is primarily the poor and middle classes who are.

    The Constitution, is made irrelevant if our elected politicians and appointed judges are allowed freedom to exercise it through interpretation based on achieving a social agenda. The laws we live under need to be clearly and concisely worded, leaving us only to be judged on the basis of having done something within or outside of the law.

    4. What about the 18th amendment? Just because the Constitution has been amended does not mean the amendment should never be repealed. People make mistakes, and so do governments. The key to making progress in ways that benefit us most is to recognize where changes need to be made, along with remedying changes that have created or worsened the problems we need to solve. Three things quickly come to mind, the Federal reserve, the 16th amendment and the 17th amendment, which the effect of was addressed in my education in the 40's and early 50's.

    The debt is another great problem needing to be resolved.

    It's quite unclear what you really want, other than a Socialist form of government, which I'm unclear as to how that is seen as a solution to anything.

    I take it you really like the sound of "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."? but that is Communism.
     
  16. outthere2

    outthere2 Senior Member

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    You stupefy me…
     
  17. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    For which I offer my condolences.
     
  18. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

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    I don't think I ever denied being socialist. I'm not a normal one at all, and there are many other things that could make me happy, but yeah, I'm socialist.

    Yes, laws should be concise. But a bigger beef I have is the totally illigitimate nature of many thousands of laws in place in the US, not exactly how vague they are in said illigitimacy.

    You talk about government mandates and force. A distinction you don't make is between business and people. This is a very important distinction.

    Yeah, an amendment can be repealed. Still not a violation of the constitution, just invalidated by another amendment. If you think we have amendments that need repealing, well, get on that..... I think there are much more damaging bog standard laws that need repealing.

    I agree that the debt needs to be resolved. In fact, I have a very quick fix for this. Abolish federal agencies like the DEA, cut agencies like DHS and the army back to actual defense forces, stop federal law enforcement pork for locals and feds alike, cut the CIA, fire eric holder, and make a bar at one million dollars income-everyone who makes over one million dollars pays every cent of it in taxes, leaving them with one million take home, and appropriate every cent held in overseas banks by anyone with over one million dollars total worth. Erect import tariffs to make chinese shit more expensive than american goods.

    Oh look at that, balanced budget and a thriving economy. What would that take, like a year or two? And that's off the top of my head. We had MASSIVE taxes in WWII, because we needed to to continue to survive as a country-and if we don't fix the debt, we won't exist as a country, so what's the difference?

    I have no direct problem with that slogan, but I do see a softer version-people should not have to sacrafice everything because they have lots, but they should have to give more. People should not get huge amounts because they have nothing, but they should get something.
     
  19. McFuddy

    McFuddy Visitor

    Wow, at first I read that as abolish the EPA. I was about to be very surprised and disgusted. But no, definitely agree with abolishing the DEA. What a complete waste of taxpayer money. Drug law reform is something that could bring in some tax dollars and help in part to resolve the deficit.
     
  20. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

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    Oh yeah, reminds me, my comprehensive-fix-shit plan would involve drug taxes. And open borders. And abolishment of the prison and military industrial complexes, wether it would require acts of congress, constitutional amendments, judicial decisions, etc, it would be necessary to free thousands of people and fix our prison population problem, and gut and rebuild rehabillitation programs to actually work instead of make money.
     
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