your thoughts on being saved

But do you still sin? If you sin are you not saved?

It is from the ultimate consequence of sin -- i.e. the Second Death, the metaphorical fires or the real Hell, eternal separation from God -- that we are saved.

When we die saved, we are perfected by the fires of God as though metal refined (unless we die with no unrepentant sins). Christ's sacrifice does not blind God to our sins, nor does it simply cover us in some veil of sanctity. Christ's Sacrifice rights us with the Father, that we may be made perfect (his sacrifice does not make us perfect in and of itself); we no longer have to suffer the ultimate consequnce of our sins: death.

 

Christ's sacrifice only acts as a covering to unintentional sins and intentional sins mocks the sacrifice and there is no longer sacrifice for sin.

(Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. Hebrews 10:26)

but there is also the hope that we will be saved because it can always be lost (Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians 2:12, Revelation 3:11) With revelations, it makes mention of an inheritance. Psalm 37:29 describes what that inheritance is (The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell upon it forever)

 

Hence the necessity for Confession. If we do sin, and we do, then we condemn ourselves. How were we brought into the love and kindness of the Lord, baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Well we are only baptised once, so how about the spot where the Bible says we should confess our sins to one another?

Also this raises the question of how serious a sin needs to be for us to completely reject God's love enough to be damned? If we walk past a pnahandler and we could have bought him/her lunch, or even just talked to them, but we simply pass because we have "better things to do", are we damned because we deliberatly sinned?

Yes, salvation is not assured, it is hoped for. Unlike the Protestants who would argue that those who lose their salvation never really had it in the first place, it appears as though you agree with me that salvation is something that can be lost and gained again through our own actions as a response to God.

 

Brothers, sin is an error in perception, consequently the truth sets us free.

 

That's a question that I am personally seeking an answer for myself. Whether or not the example you describe is a deliberate sin is something I'm not entirely sure about. If all we did was help others, we would have no time to take care of our own needs like eating. We'd could end up malnourished and sleep deprived because we refused to ignore all the opportunities to help. Time management is very complex and we can't be everywhere at once, even Elijah was given time to relax but can we all be like Elijah or do we need to be? There's also the possibility that the panhandler may not want to talk. Each day has it's own problems, so perhaps there are more wiser ways to handle time. I think Matthew 6:26 has something to say about the lightness and ease of human existence. That is not to say we won't help when it's serious it's just that some things are better up handled in other ways. 1 Timothy 5:16 talks more about this: "If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need."

Interesting story my sister once told me, she bought a homeless man a meal from McDonalds which came out about $15 and when she handed him the food he promptly tossed it in the garbage. Guess he didn't like McDonalds...

Also, I think Mark 14:38 has something to say about this, "Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak". Perhaps as long as the spirit is willing there is no rejection of God, but there are still pitfalls because our bodies misses the mark like the disciples falling asleep when trying to keep watch. Would the disciples have need to confess that sin?

As for why we should confess sins, "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." seems to suggest that one fell into sin and has become spiritually ill. Perhaps it's mostly about strengthening each other to help encourage and hold strong in the faith and to purify as though metal in an oven. As opposed to needing it in the sense of becoming condemned... if that makes sense. But that does raise a good point.

True, seeing as I am not a protestant myself I don't agree with many of it's teachings

It also seems we do agree which seems pretty rare for us because we hardly ever agree but I think we agree on many things more than we know

 

I don't know the part you mean, but I assume that confessing sins to each other simply means being honest and upfront.... I don't think that confessing in private to a priest counts.....

 

Obviously, Ukr would disagree with me but I think what you said follows a bit more with what is meant. Basically, Christians who are upfront with each other are being friendly and helpful; it's being a good buddy I don't think their needs to be a special room and special mantras to be spoken beforehand for it to count.

Although, I personally don't see why doing it in private wouldn't count. It may actually be preferable.

 

Well again, I don't know the passage myself, but, I think being in private would be less important.

I would assume it means to tell people what matters to them. Say what's on your mind, don't keep secrets, get things out in the open. If you have a horrible secret, how can two people sharing a horrible secret with themselves and god be any better? God knows anyway, unless I'm much mistaken. I think that having the character to honestly tell people what you've done, what you will do, etc, is what that passage probably refers to.

But what do I know, I'm a heathen.

 

James 5
14Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
(You can c.f. with other translations here: http://bible.cc/james/5-16.htm )

It depends very much on the theology of the ordained priesthood as well as the idea of ordinary nad extraordinary ways of forgiveness and absolution.

When a priest is ordained, he is able to act in persona christi, i.e. in the person of Christ. Christ gave to his Apostles (not all his disciples) the power to forgive and retain sins on earth. That is the power of Christ as witnesses to in the Gospels. During the prayers, Father will say "i absolve you..." meaning something close to, but differnet from, "I forgive you...". Forgiveness, such as that from God, can be absolute, but absolution goes even further meaning that the punishmnet as well has been eradicated (or absolved). Absolution si full reconciliation with God and the Church whereas forgiveness is something God can do almost constantly out of love for all the people. It takes absolution and reconciliation for us to join in that love.

An analogy might be a cheating spouse. the other may forgive, but may chose to move on with their life without the unfaithfull spouse. Absolution, or reconciliation would be the reunion and complete remission of guilt and punishment for said actions by the other.

From the James passage, I beleive it is clear this is not generally confessing that we do sin, nor is it making each other fel good by being honest--but Confessing specific sins to an elder, read: priest, of the Church that we may be healed (another word for saved).

Again, it bgan in the Church as public confessions to those assembled with very strict penances involving fasting and other such ascetic acts, but has shifted over the centuries to private confession with penances consisting mainly of prayers. This is the ordinary or regular way sins are forgiven and absolved.

An extraordinary way might be a person who is dying and cannot have a priest come to them to grant them absolution. If they are truly contrite, we hope God grants absolution because it is from God that the priests declare absolution in the first place. Another example of ordinary confession would be the Penitential Rite in the Mass prior to the Liturgy of the Word when we confess our general sinfullness, generally that we have sinned to and with the rest of the congregation and ask for forgiveness and prayers form all present (as well as the Blessed Virgin).

 

You can be "saved" 7 times. After that, the placebo effect of religious ignorance wears off and you realize everything is

 

I thought it was interesting how quickly you kind of glossed over the fact that the Scripture actually says elders and not priests. You know of course, the two words do not have the same meaning and certainly not the same connotation.

 

I was also wondering if priests actually anoint him with oil and if not what Catholics believe this means.

 

A few things, the presbyters and episkopos were used fairly interchangeable in the NT Epistles. Episkopos, the overseers, seem not to function as merely a symbolic function, or governence function, but seem to have a different power than say the lay believer.

It is the presbyters/episkopos that are specifically called to perform liturgical acts, being the ones to come to for physical and spiritual healing, entrusted with the office given by Christ.

Paul and Barnabas ordained specific people for this office, and it was not merely given (from what we can tell) to respected men, but to men who were Godly to whom it could be entrusted. Titus is asked to "rebuke with authority". Whose authority? I would argue Christ's. It is Christ who gave the Apostles (and again, not anyone else) the power to bind and loose as well he sent them as the Father sent him (that is, to preach, to forgive sins, as well as to ordain men to act on their behalf).

So yes, it says "elder", or "old man"--but form the texts it is clear it meant more.

We generally view the preamble to verse 16 as dealing with physical sickness, and thus have Rites for Anointing the Sick, often conflated with the Last Rites.

 

I really think Christians put way too much emphasis on being "saved". It shifts attention from God and the beauty of this life to us and what's going to happen to us after life. I don't believe in an after life, and drift in and out of heaven to the extent I deviate from the realization that only God is important and go whoring after idols. So I guess I believe I've been saved several times a week. But in the broader sense, I consider myself "saved". I had a life changing experience several years ago that made me view reality in a radically different way and accept Jesus as my role model. I find it hard to believe I'll ever lose that, and with Him as my guide I expect and hope to remain basically on the right track.

 

I always thought it "better to save than be saved" (?)

 

When you save you get saved too.

 

i'll never get this saved shit. saved from what ? its nuts.

 

saved from having to face reality.


reality is uncomfortable for some people

 

reality exists. everyones is there own, but at least its real.things people cant explain is'nt. half the world is conditioned and programmed to believe lies.i think thats sad.especially if its being passed on to the children.people should'nt lie to children. :2thumbsup:

 

I can't wrap my head around the fact that you go through life just to go to heaven. I can't understand it. I don't really associate myself with any religion, because it's just caused me problems. I've tried them all.
I'd rather have a wonderful time on earth and risk going to hell than to have a shite time doing things to go to heaven when there could possibly be no answer.
I feel like when you die thats it. You're dead. To quote my favourite book,

"We're going to die and not even know. We'll never know, and all this meaninglessness will just go on and on and on. And we won't any longer be witnesses to it. We won't have even that little bit of power to give meaning to it in our minds. We'll just be gone, dead, dead, dead, without ever knowing,"

And i believe that. It depresses the hell out of me sometimes and then gives me hope, i'm not sure how to explain it. I don't want there to be a heaven. I hope there is no afterlife.